Limited edition Black 5 - a bit of a puzzle

Discuss Hornby Model Railway products and related topics here. This includes (Lima, Rivarossi, Jouef, Electrotren).
BobDM
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Limited edition Black 5 - a bit of a puzzle

Postby BobDM » Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:30 pm

I had an e-mail about the limited edition Black 5 - apparently there are only 1000.

Is this the model Hornby did for the NRM in a different guise? I seem to remember reading somewhere that Hornby's Black 5 left something to be desired and I assume that it was this model that was criticized. Seems odd that the NRM would be happy about selling something really poor though.

Mike Parkes
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Re: Limited edition Black 5 - a bit of a puzzle

Postby Mike Parkes » Tue Dec 17, 2019 6:23 pm

Its a matter of opinion "how poor" it is - at the end of the day it looks like a Black 5, is far better than the 1970s version that is in the Railroad range and no one else makes one so if the NRM want to sell one under their limited edition range then it had to be the Hornby 2002 version.

Buelligan
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Re: Limited edition Black 5 - a bit of a puzzle

Postby Buelligan » Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:51 pm

Is this the one:one edition? I don't really know enough to comment on how accurate it is, but it certainly looks a nice model. I did have the one:one Bittern on pre-order, then decided I shouldn't really and cancelled it, but now regret it.

BobDM
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Re: Limited edition Black 5 - a bit of a puzzle

Postby BobDM » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:47 am

Is this the one:one edition? I don't really know enough to comment on how accurate it is, but it certainly looks a nice model. I did have the one:one Bittern on pre-order, then decided I shouldn't really and cancelled it, but now regret it.


Yep. That's the one. I have never come across the One:One models so I don't know whether they just use the bog standard range with a new paintjob and a bit of fancy packaging or whether they do something special to the model, which seems doubtful.

Bigmet
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Re: Limited edition Black 5 - a bit of a puzzle

Postby Bigmet » Wed Dec 18, 2019 8:22 am

BobDM wrote:...Seems odd that the NRM would be happy about selling something really poor though.

They are selling what's available as a RTR OO model of this class, and Hornby are milking this very dated tooling for all it is worth!

If a Black 5 is a 'must have' and you like it and feel it is worth the money, then it's fine.

If like me you feel that it is well below the standard Hornby can now achieve (compare it to their B1, Castle or King Arthur as 'completely newly tooled' 4-6-0s) then you will wait until Hornby or a competitor brings out a higher grade model. This will happen - some day...

Paul-H
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Re: Limited edition Black 5 - a bit of a puzzle

Postby Paul-H » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:14 am

Don't know if its the same tooling but I had one of their TTS sound fitted Black 5's new 2 Christmases ago and it couldn't pull the skin of a rice pudding

It used to sit there spinning its wheels with just 4 Mk1 coaches, my Bachmann STD Class 5 could pull 12.

Paul

Bigmet
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Re: Limited edition Black 5 - a bit of a puzzle

Postby Bigmet » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:02 pm

I would suspect the tender for that. Really draggy due to the weight on the wheelsets with both a high friction axle location and pick up wipers that are functionally brakes. All Hornby tenders share these characteristics, but it seems to plumb the depths to the greatest extent in the old Stanier tender (a bonus on top of that moulding's clear inaccuracies). I have known it completely stop an 8F; draggy when new, brakes fully applied after a few hours operation...

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Mountain
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Re: Limited edition Black 5 - a bit of a puzzle

Postby Mountain » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:33 pm

I used to have a Hornby black 5 that came in a limited edition box set that was very detailed. It was an excellent runner too. I think it was limited to 500 or 450 pieces. I also had a similar limited edition set with a loco drive 9F in it.
I can't by any means say the black 5 was poor. It was the complete opposite in every way.
But did Hornby release the 1000 piece limited edition you describe, and base it on the older Triang/Hornby designed black 5?

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stuartp
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Re: Limited edition Black 5 - a bit of a puzzle

Postby stuartp » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:59 pm

If it's the non-railroad model then the tender has an odd valence under the running plate, the welded version has some extraneous rivets and the bogie wheels are a bit generic. On the plus side it's dimensionally accurate and the different topfeed, dome and wheelbase variations are faithfully captured. It's a bit light but it predates the routine use of mazak in body components. It has a sprung rear axle which can cause it to 'sit down' and lose traction, I've not found that to be a problem but mine don't yet run very heavily loaded.
Last edited by stuartp on Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Portwilliam - Southwest Scotland in the 1960s, in OO - http://stuart1968.wordpress.com/

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stuartp
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Re: Limited edition Black 5 - a bit of a puzzle

Postby stuartp » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:00 pm

Duplicate. Oops !
Portwilliam - Southwest Scotland in the 1960s, in OO - http://stuart1968.wordpress.com/

Buelligan
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Re: Limited edition Black 5 - a bit of a puzzle

Postby Buelligan » Thu Dec 19, 2019 12:11 am

BobDM wrote:
Is this the one:one edition? I don't really know enough to comment on how accurate it is, but it certainly looks a nice model. I did have the one:one Bittern on pre-order, then decided I shouldn't really and cancelled it, but now regret it.


Yep. That's the one. I have never come across the One:One models so I don't know whether they just use the bog standard range with a new paintjob and a bit of fancy packaging or whether they do something special to the model, which seems doubtful.


In that case, I think the model is just using whatever tooling they available, the one:one aspect of it is, I believe, just that its a model of a loco in the one:one collection. The Black 5 and Bittern being the 1st of the collection stored in the old Hornby factory.

I too initially thought that being part of the one:one, maybe they'd used the full size locos to take measurements from and make a completely accurate model, but for the price they're selling, I doubt they've gone that far. I've got a brochure of the collection somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it out

BobDM
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Re: Limited edition Black 5 - a bit of a puzzle

Postby BobDM » Thu Dec 19, 2019 6:52 am

In that case, I think the model is just using whatever tooling they available, the one:one aspect of it is, I believe, just that its a model of a loco in the one:one collection. The Black 5 and Bittern being the 1st of the collection stored in the old Hornby factory.

I too initially thought that being part of the one:one, maybe they'd used the full size locos to take measurements from and make a completely accurate model, but for the price they're selling, I doubt they've gone that far. I've got a brochure of the collection somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it out


Thanks for this. It is what I suspected. The fancy packaging tempted me into thinking it was new though the price seemed a bit too good to be true for a brand new release.

Someone, somewhere will no doubt realise that one of the most used locos in the steam era still hasn't been modelled to current standards and do it justice.

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stuartp
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Re: Limited edition Black 5 - a bit of a puzzle

Postby stuartp » Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:10 pm

I still don't understand what's "really poor" about it. It's got a couple of compromises on an otherwise accurate model.
Portwilliam - Southwest Scotland in the 1960s, in OO - http://stuart1968.wordpress.com/

Bigmet
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Re: Limited edition Black 5 - a bit of a puzzle

Postby Bigmet » Fri Dec 20, 2019 2:14 pm

stuartp wrote:I still don't understand what's "really poor" about it. It's got a couple of compromises on an otherwise accurate model.

It's undoubtedly a Black 5, most of the untidinesses of earlier versions have been dealt with. There's something slightly awry at the front end; the smokebox should protrude ahead of the quadrant in the fooplate. The tender is now the worst offender, most notably the spurious valance distorting the spring and axlebox representation. Mechanically too light for sufficient traction for the type, and the draggy tender is a further hindrance; ye old floppy bar mounting for the bogie much inferior to the current arrangement of a pivot pin running in a curved track, which can take a spring.

The closest comparisons in the range are the BR std 4MT and B1 4-6-0s. I'll buy a Black 5 when it's all around as good a model as Hornby's B1.

Buelligan
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Re: Limited edition Black 5 - a bit of a puzzle

Postby Buelligan » Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:01 am

stuartp wrote:I still don't understand what's "really poor" about it. It's got a couple of compromises on an otherwise accurate model.


It's good enough for us, my wife likes the Black 5, so I got her one to use if we ever manage to move and I get my outdoor layout. She's happy enough with it. But I will agree, I had a Hornby Henry, and that had more wheel spin than my car with cheap tyres and a wet road! I'd run it with only 3 or 4 coaches, and getting it to move off smoothly without spinning it's wheels was tricky, and if you didn't stop very gradually, it'd slide around like it was on ice. Also span it's wheels if already running and increasing speed. A shame as it was nicely made, just not enough traction.


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