Gear problem on keith park R2586

Discuss Hornby Model Railway products and related topics here. This includes (Lima, Rivarossi, Jouef, Electrotren).
bob hughes60
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Gear problem on keith park R2586

Postby bob hughes60 » Fri May 03, 2019 11:32 am

A freind sent me this loco to repair saying motor turns but no drive. So i downloaded sheet R298C and....On taking the loco apart both top gears R8849 which transmit drive from the worm gear to the lower gear then the axle gear are cracked.
I cannot see if the lower gear which transmits drive to to the axle gear is also cracked without removing more parts.
I have ordered replacement gears R8849 but was just wondering whether any other members have had this problem or has my freind just been unlucky?
Grateful for feedback.
Bob Hughes

Bigmet
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Re: Gear problem on keith park R2586

Postby Bigmet » Fri May 03, 2019 12:48 pm

Hornby have had intermittent problems with axle gears in particular splitting on their China made loco drive models. First saw this on a friend's Q1 circa 2004, Hornby briskly replaced the wheelset - it was literally weeks after first release of the model. Seen multiple reports on line since, but there is no pattern to it, no one model worse than another, although I think it mostly affects steam models.

I have a suspicion of the cause. Hornby's machining tolerances are pretty loose (I have had reason to compare dimensions of fairly large sets of their machined components on product from single production runs - as nearly as that may be determined by a customer thousands of miles and a distribution chain away from the factory - and the variance was significant). Don't know what they accept on mouldings. But a top end axle diameter with a bottom end gear hole diameter, and that's the recipe for cracking.

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Peterm
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Re: Gear problem on keith park R2586

Postby Peterm » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:41 am

TheDuke71000 wrote:
bob hughes60 wrote:A freind sent me this loco to repair saying motor turns but no drive. So i downloaded sheet R298C and....On taking the loco apart both top gears R8849 which transmit drive from the worm gear to the lower gear then the axle gear are cracked.
I cannot see if the lower gear which transmits drive to to the axle gear is also cracked without removing more parts.
I have ordered replacement gears R8849 but was just wondering whether any other members have had this problem or has my freind just been unlucky?
Grateful for feedback.
Bob Hughes


Bob,
Indeed I have found this problem with all Hornby Rebuilt Bulleid Pacifics with catalogue numbers lower than R30xx

I have also found the reason why this happens.

It is due to a design fault in the method of holding the front end of the motor tightly in place. As a result the motor can rise just slightly at the front end, and just enough so that the worm gear begins to strip the primary drive cog. This can cause the plastic teeth on the primary drive cog to become chewed, and the stress to cause both this and the secondary drive cog to also crack.

Replacing the split drive cogs will not solve the problem. You need to examine the front of the motor and try and find a way to hold it down. A short term solution is to use a strip of strong "Carpet tape" as this has a strong stickyness, stronger than say electrical tape !

Models of this type with Catalogue numbers R3xxx and higher do NOT suffer this problem as the mechanism has been modified.

The Duke 71000

In which case Hornby should have to replace any model so affected regardless of any owner modifications that wouldn't have contributed to the damage. Design faults should be under warranty for as long as the item exists.
Pete.

bob hughes60
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Re: Gear problem on keith park R2586

Postby bob hughes60 » Sun Jun 30, 2019 7:27 am

Could I thank contributors for their valuable help.
Cheers
Bob Hughes

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SRman
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Re: Gear problem on keith park R2586

Postby SRman » Tue Jul 02, 2019 5:07 am

That's very useful, Duke. I have several of the same locos and, while I haven't experienced problems with them, this may well allow me to pre-empt such problems. For once, the old "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" saying may be wrong.

Thanks. 8)

Bigmet
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Re: Gear problem on keith park R2586

Postby Bigmet » Tue Jul 02, 2019 9:16 am

Peterm wrote:In which case Hornby should have to replace any model so affected regardless of any owner modifications that wouldn't have contributed to the damage. Design faults should be under warranty for as long as the item exists.

Good luck with that. For this class of goods, six years is considered acceptable product life.

What to do about it? In addition to what Duke 71000 suggests of giving the model a part dismantled inspection to correct any less then wonderful assembly, run the model for about ten hours in total as soon as you can from receipt. This is very effective at finding any 'infant mortality', and when you march the model back to the retailer within a fortnight of purchase there's no argument, it's new and it failed.

That's how the Q1 with a cracked axle gear I mentioned up thread was picked up, and it is far from the only model I have seen produce an early failure. (The other side to this is that I buy a reasonable amount of s/h and can gauge pretty closely from the state of the wheel tyres and wiper pick up tracks how much running it has had. (Usually, not a lot...)

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Peterm
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Re: Gear problem on keith park R2586

Postby Peterm » Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:20 am

Bigmet wrote:
Peterm wrote:In which case Hornby should have to replace any model so affected regardless of any owner modifications that wouldn't have contributed to the damage. Design faults should be under warranty for as long as the item exists.

Good luck with that. For this class of goods, six years is considered acceptable product life.

What to do about it? In addition to what Duke 71000 suggests of giving the model a part dismantled inspection to correct any less then wonderful assembly, run the model for about ten hours in total as soon as you can from receipt. This is very effective at finding any 'infant mortality', and when you march the model back to the retailer within a fortnight of purchase there's no argument, it's new and it failed.

That's how the Q1 with a cracked axle gear I mentioned up thread was picked up, and it is far from the only model I have seen produce an early failure. (The other side to this is that I buy a reasonable amount of s/h and can gauge pretty closely from the state of the wheel tyres and wiper pick up tracks how much running it has had. (Usually, not a lot...)

Yes I know it'll never happen, but it'd be nice if there was some sort of comeback when it really is a manufacturing or design fault.
Pete.

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Peterm
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Re: Gear problem on keith park R2586

Postby Peterm » Thu Jul 04, 2019 1:33 am

TheDuke71000 wrote:Quote: In which case Hornby should have to replace any model so affected regardless of any owner modifications that wouldn't have contributed to the damage. Design faults should be under warranty for as long as the item exists. Pete "Unquote"


Pete
Indeed you are quite right, but then how many modellers have encountered this problem and recognised the problem for what it is ?

I'm fairly confident that few modellers do as I do, and immediately take new locomotivess to pieces, to look for both design faults and assembly faults. More might if they were aware that 1 in 3 Hornby model locos have assembly faults, which can quickly end in malfunction. The most common assembly fault with tender locos, for example, is tracking problems of the four wires between loco and tender most commonly under the cab area. Or that Heljan diesel and electric loco models often have not got their pick-up swipers set correctly, so only half the pick-ups are working half the time.

Hornby have with regard to the Bulleid Pacifics corrected the design fault some years ago. I had the same problem with two x R2584 ("Plymouth") back in 2008. Both of which stripped the primary cog within a few weeks of putting on the layout. For this and other reasons I keep detailed "Record cards" of all my fleet, as exampled below.

Southern steam stock cards (small).jpg

Some of the design and assembly faults I have found in my flaeet of over 130 locos are already detailed (with solutions) in my postings for my layout "Basingstoke 1958-67" in the Model Railway Photography section.

The Duke 71000

You've just reminded me about a Heljan western and a Cl 47 where the worm was meshing only on one side of the worm gear. This made a mess of the gear on one side. I couldn't get spares from Howes or even Heljan in Denmark so I turned the gear around, thinned down the boss on the side and put a washer/washers, can't remember how many, on the other side to locate it directly under the centre of the the worm where it should have been in the first place.
Pete.

Bigmet
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Re: Gear problem on keith park R2586

Postby Bigmet » Thu Jul 04, 2019 8:37 am

Peterm wrote:Yes I know it'll never happen, but it'd be nice if there was some sort of comeback when it really is a manufacturing or design fault.

Here is a list of RTR OO where I am aware of systematic rectification by the manufacturer for clearly identified design, assembly and materials faults. (It cannot claim to be complete, as I don't follow 'everything'; for example Hornby's T9 with Mazak rot, were replacements offered?)

Bachmann
A1 pacific motor replacement (return affected models for rectification).
N class footplate failures from mazak rot (replacement footplates supplied).

Dapol
Class 68 livery placement incorrect (replacement bodies supplied).

Heljan
Class 47 chassis block mazak rot (replacement mechanisms supplied).
Class 17 motor burn outs (replacement mechanisms supplied).

Hornby
Class 30/31 chassis block mazak rot (replacement mechanisms supplied).

All the above it was apparent that there was a major problem from the number of defect reports from owners, and the manufacturers responded systematically to owners that claimed. (I still have an early Bachmann A1 from the recall group for motor replacement - due to faulty wire in the windings - but having tested it and found the motor perfectly good in this respect I never sent it in and it runs perfectly to this day. See, we don't all do what we are told...)

It's the smaller volume failure occurences that are the problem. Those that occur within the warranty period are fixed - if claimed for - by whatever spares and repairs process the manufacturer operates. Thereafter it's a patchwork...

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Peterm
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Re: Gear problem on keith park R2586

Postby Peterm » Fri Jul 05, 2019 1:05 am

I had a cl31 chassis replaced because of mazak rot and while Simon Kohler was with them I had five Pullman coaches upgraded to the close coupling version FOC. Mr Kohler even sorted out the customs mob and returned them all fixed up, also FOC. So it's not all bad. I've got a T9 which so far seems to be all right... fingers crossed.
Pete.

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SRman
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Re: Gear problem on keith park R2586

Postby SRman » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:05 am

Bigmet wrote:
Peterm wrote:Yes I know it'll never happen, but it'd be nice if there was some sort of comeback when it really is a manufacturing or design fault.

Here is a list of RTR OO where I am aware of systematic rectification by the manufacturer for clearly identified design, assembly and materials faults. (It cannot claim to be complete, as I don't follow 'everything'; for example Hornby's T9 with Mazak rot, were replacements offered?)

Bachmann
A1 pacific motor replacement (return affected models for rectification).
N class footplate failures from mazak rot (replacement footplates supplied).

Dapol
Class 68 livery placement incorrect (replacement bodies supplied).

Heljan
Class 47 chassis block mazak rot (replacement mechanisms supplied).
Class 17 motor burn outs (replacement mechanisms supplied).

Hornby
Class 30/31 chassis block mazak rot (replacement mechanisms supplied).

All the above it was apparent that there was a major problem from the number of defect reports from owners, and the manufacturers responded systematically to owners that claimed. (I still have an early Bachmann A1 from the recall group for motor replacement - due to faulty wire in the windings - but having tested it and found the motor perfectly good in this respect I never sent it in and it runs perfectly to this day. See, we don't all do what we are told...)

It's the smaller volume failure occurences that are the problem. Those that occur within the warranty period are fixed - if claimed for - by whatever spares and repairs process the manufacturer operates. Thereafter it's a patchwork...



The Dapol class 68 was at a cost to the claimants, so wasn't entirely fair, especially to overseas modellers. Dapol also completely failed to rectify the faulty PCB design and incorrect livery colours on their class 73 models.

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SRman
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Re: Gear problem on keith park R2586

Postby SRman » Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:09 am

Peterm wrote:I had a cl31 chassis replaced because of mazak rot and while Simon Kohler was with them I had five Pullman coaches upgraded to the close coupling version FOC. Mr Kohler even sorted out the customs mob and returned them all fixed up, also FOC. So it's not all bad. I've got a T9 which so far seems to be all right... fingers crossed.


When my class 31 displayed the rot, Hornby had run out of working chassis, but supplied me with a replacement chassis block when I assured them I was capable of swapping the works over.

As for the Pullmans, I had nine of them requiring replacement bogies and coupling mechanisms, and Simon Kohler organised to send over the required items. What actually arrived was a huge box with enough spares not only for my own Pullmans, but for several other BRMA members here in Melbourne to fix theirs as well.

An earlier fix was the Hornby class 50 with faulty PCB. They sent over a replacement at no charge.

Well done Hornby.

Bigmet
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Re: Gear problem on keith park R2586

Postby Bigmet » Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:56 pm

SRman wrote:The Dapol class 68 was at a cost to the claimants, so wasn't entirely fair, especially to overseas modellers. Dapol also completely failed to rectify the faulty PCB design and incorrect livery colours on their class 73 models.

Didn't know these details, through not having a direct interest in either model. Interesting.

rejrob
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Re: Gear problem on keith park R2586

Postby rejrob » Sat Oct 19, 2019 6:48 pm

Hi there,Oh wo and lack aday???With the current prices of Bulleids I have purchased 2nd hand from several well known firms and on 2 occasions plus another 2 of my own purchased new ,the uneven motion of the locos or just just motor turning and no motion entailed the stripping down.lo and behold in every case a cracked plastic gear wheel, the larger transfer gear.Several replacements bought and fitted and super result.Only happened on rebuilt type wc/bb and not spam cans ,funny that.Hornby make good locos overall but they do inherently build some that persist in certain faults being present and despite being spoken to seem to turn a blind eye(or two) Hope your problem is now solved but keep a couple of spare new gears All the best Ron

Bigmet
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Re: Gear problem on keith park R2586

Postby Bigmet » Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:50 pm

SRman wrote:The Dapol class 68 was at a cost to the claimants, so wasn't entirely fair, especially to overseas modellers. Dapol also completely failed to rectify the faulty PCB design and incorrect livery colours on their class 73 models.

Wasn't aware of that on the class 68. Distance purchasers would have had the option of return for refund; but I guess with Dapol the only game in town for this class the majority will have decided to 'put up or shut up'.

Regarding Dapol's general performance, I am leery of them TBH. I'll wait for reports and/or an eyes on and test running opportunity on the class 21 before committing to a purchase. My Hornbach hybrid may not be top drawer, but it looks enough like the ugliness to convince me, and runs beautifully when called upon to do so. (It's main task is to 'fail', as the prototype often did, to furnish a reason for extra loco movements as an N2, N7, B1 or any other steam loco available takes over the turn.)


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