Real model prices?

Discuss Hornby Model Railway products and related topics here. This includes (Lima, Rivarossi, Jouef, Electrotren).
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D605Eagle
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Re: Real model prices?

Postby D605Eagle » Tue Nov 07, 2017 6:14 pm

Bigmet wrote:There will be all sorts of things happen, with the latitude afforded by 'sooner or later'. Ask for a date.

To put things into perspective, the latest version of the LMS pacific has amounted to a production run of less than 2000 units. In 2000/1 when the rebuilt Merchant navy was produced, more than 30000 units were sold in the first 12 months. I'll be surprised if we see another production run of the LMS pacifics again before the backend of next year.

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TimberSurf
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Re: Real model prices?

Postby TimberSurf » Tue Nov 07, 2017 8:42 pm

The following figures are unverified costs, just for demonstration.
There are two huge costs to making an engine, the body shell mould and the chassis mould. 15-20 years ago a mould might cost £40,000! This is an investment for the manufacturer, up front, that has to be seen as a payback over the life of the tool (not including refurbishing it). Typically for a detailed mould, you might get 10,000 injections out of it (it gets worn out over use, and creates poor quality product).
So if the first run is 1,000, that means each engine costs £40 just in payback for the plastic injection mould tool, add £40 for manufacture (dont forget there is a chassis mould and £20 for the middle man profit, you can see how £100 for an engine would not be unreasonable. Obviously if the moulds are paid for in the first run, then popular models will be very profitable for a second run! Or could be sold for a fraction of the first run.
The manufacture could arrange long term investment and say charge £20 to the first run cost and hope to run a second batch in a few years to recoup the rest of the mould. It all depends on the manufacturer's strategy and the risks he is willing to take and also has capability to carry large loans to finance new products. In reality, mould costs have come down, what used to be a hand made (over months) mould is now designed in CAD and created with CNC bots! Rough cost is now about £12,000. That means only £12 per loco for the first thousand. Old moulds have made their money and stock tied up on a shelf needs to be released/liquidised to finance the next offering.
Long term strategies in industry are simply a thing of the past, if an investment won't make a profit in 1 or 2 years, businesses will pass. There are simply too many variables for us to guess, unless someone has insider information from the board rooms, we can only speculate, but in the meantime, don't try to analyse selling price/reasons, just take advantage of any benefits and leave the high priced ones to those that can afford/need to have!
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alex3410
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Re: Real model prices?

Postby alex3410 » Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:31 am

D605Eagle wrote:
alex3410 wrote:does this new revision of it still have traction tyres?

I don't think its any different than the last release a few years ago Alex. I've just ordered one, I'll let you know when it arrives.


That would be useful, thank you :)

Bigmet
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Re: Real model prices?

Postby Bigmet » Wed Nov 08, 2017 9:56 am

D605Eagle wrote:To put things into perspective, the latest version of the LMS pacific has amounted to a production run of less than 2000 units. In 2000/1 when the rebuilt Merchant navy was produced, more than 30000 units were sold in the first 12 months...

But for the full perspective you need to look at how many newly tooled and thus good quality OO RTR loco models were available when 2000 dawned.

It was a very small number, Bachmann had I think the 57xx, 2251, N class, WD 2-8-0, BR std 4MTT and class 25 on sale or about to be and Hornby precisely one, the rebuilt MN arriving early in 2000. (My favourite from that group the WD 2-8-0, a model that still looks good against the latest introductions.) These models were way better than all previous regular RTR OO productions, including those then in current production which were Bachmann's split chassis, Hornby's horrors from the 1960s on, and the very basic Lima product. Of course the new items were popular, and large volumes could quickly be sold.

In short, there wasn't that much competition, just seven good OO locos available! And most of the UK market really wanted a steam loco to come in a Hornby box too, Bachmann hadn't yet caught on to the extent it has now.

Look at the competition facing a new introduction now. There's easily 'a hundred' (I have not counted!) different loco classes with good quality models on sale right now, from new stock. And there's a ton of secondhand from the introductions of the last 17 years that have no new stock currently available. The competitive landscape is completely different.

It's for this reason I feel the manufacturers are now unwise to consider retooled 'upgrade' versions of all but the most popular classes. There will not be the demand, unless the replaced model was truly dire. Bring out something all new, never previously had a RTR model, that will do best. The only RTR locos on my 'buy' list are in these categories, Oxford's N7, Rapido/NRM Stirling single, Dapol's (mythical) class 21 to replace the Hornby direness, Bachmann's V2 to replace their earlier direness.

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Re: Real model prices?

Postby Pennine MC » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:02 pm

D605Eagle wrote:[. However I see this as self defeating going by how many people on the facebook selling pages are getting rid of all their models as they are no longer interested in the hobby due to costs. .


Well they're really cutting off their nose to spite their faces aren't they! Are they also selling their cars because they can't afford brand new Jags?

Hornby pricing has always been impossible to fathom - my favourite example being the inherited LNER 21T hopper. At one point that reached a penny short of 18 quid RRP; the replacement model (which is just about as good a model as anybody, let alone just Hornby, have ever done) was only around 15 when it first came out and can occasionally be had for very much less. I personally think it's cockup rather than conspiracy - the range is just so vast that they can't keep tabs on it and take a sufficient overview.

Bigmet wrote:[
It's for this reason I feel the manufacturers are now unwise to consider retooled 'upgrade' versions of all but the most popular classes. There will not be the demand, unless the replaced model was truly dire. .


I'd very much agree with that. We're at the point of diminishing returns with the endless retools. Also, progress isn't necessarily linear; there's also a fairly evident phenomenon of retooled models correcting previous shortcomings, but introducing new ones.

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Re: Real model prices?

Postby D605Eagle » Fri Nov 10, 2017 1:57 am

alex3410 wrote:
D605Eagle wrote:
alex3410 wrote:does this new revision of it still have traction tyres?

I don't think its any different than the last release a few years ago Alex. I've just ordered one, I'll let you know when it arrives.


That would be useful, thank you :)

Its exactly the same as the last issue Alex ;)

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alex3410
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Re: Real model prices?

Postby alex3410 » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:19 am

Thanks for letting me know, the silver lining i guess is there will be more spares about if anyone has an old one that needs some tlc

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sarah
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Re: Real model prices?

Postby sarah » Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:01 pm

The Railroad 14XX is basically the same model, (but with a simplified "GWR" livery, and a blank BR smokebox number plate!) but it seems that some have a problem with the rear driving wheels not sitting properly onto the rail read, leading to slipping in forward "gear"...

More information on the Railroad model here...


https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/post/view/topic_id/20632/?p=1

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D605Eagle
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Re: Real model prices?

Postby D605Eagle » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:45 pm

On all Hornby 14 and 48xx's the spring on the rear axle is too powerful. If you reduce its strength the loco is capable of pulling much more even without the traction tyres. The one I got seems to sit ok but I really only bought it for parts for a rather dead BR version I have.

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Bufferstop
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Re: Real model prices?

Postby Bufferstop » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:54 pm

This doesn't sound much different to what I had to do to many years ago to my Dapol chassis bought for a fiver out of the odds and ends box at their factory showroom. This was well after they sold the model to Hornby. One of the blokes from the factory told me what I'd need to do to get it to go ok. I didn't tell him about the plan to take the plain drivers from the Airfix chassis to replace the traction tyres. It will at least pull the autotrain coach now.
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sarah
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Re: Real model prices?

Postby sarah » Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:49 pm

The Hornby chassis is basically the same, it seems, as the Dapol version.

The Airfix and Mainline chassis was different, as it has a carden shaft between the larger motor (that is visible in the cab) and the drive worm and gear.

I think I remember the Airfix/ Mainline had the drive on the front axle?

The Airfix / mainline models also used plunger pick-ups, whic sometimes jam up with old oil and gunge.

Dapol changed the chassis, using the smaller motor, similar to that used on the Dapol Austerity 0-6-0 ST (AKA J94) and different pick-ups.

All versions can be made better. Swapping the traction tyre wheels for plain ones is quite easy, so long as you get the "quartering" right....

The fact that the two sets of driving wheels have a different arrangement of balance weights can, for many, be ignored....

There is a way of maintaining the balance weights on the tractin tyred wheels....I have yet to do this, but it is possible it seems to swap the actual wheel tyres from a plain set for the grooved tyres for the traction tyres!

Hornby Magazine December issue has a piece on some detailing of the 14XX, and the Ex Airfix/ Mainline/ Dapol / Hornby Autocoach.

From the comment in the article on hiding the motor with a crew, it would appear that they are in fact using an Airfix / Mainline example of the 14XX?

There is a lot more on detailing the Ex Airfix autocoaches in Model Railway Journal, issues 9 and more in issue 17....

The coach as it comes is mainly Diagram A30 (but should be flush-glazed...Flush glazing parts are made by at least two makers...)....but the A28 is very similar, and has recessed side glazing, as the model has. BUT the drivers door on the A28 is flush with the sides, the A30 is recessed, as on the model!

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Re: Real model prices?

Postby Dad-1 » Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:19 pm

Surely the only "Real Model Price" is the one each individual is prepared to pay ?
The market place is full of deals of various provenance, but the choice is yours.

As to 14XX's you have a choice, expensive, or cheap, new or secondhand. I Have
1 x Hornby, 1 x Dapol, both DCC'd and both run .... O.K. Certainly O.K enough for
me not to want another.

Geoff T.
Remember ... I know nothing about railways.
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