E2e's 2017 4 Wheel Coach Competition Entry

Discuss Hornby Model Railway products and related topics here. This includes (Lima, Rivarossi, Jouef, Electrotren).
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alex3410
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Re: E2e's 2017 4 Wheel Coach Competition Entry

Postby alex3410 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:37 pm

End2end wrote: but I'm still not sure how to wire it up on vero board.


If you do get it sorted would kill for a wiring diagram and parts list, would be really handy reference

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End2end
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Re: E2e's 2017 4 Wheel Coach Competition Entry

Postby End2end » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:48 pm

Bufferstop wrote:Once it's all gone, stick on a couple of those PD NEM pocket mounts that Dad-1 recommends then fit it with whichever NEM coupler you prefer. It will make a fantastic difference to the appearance.

I don't think I have the skill to get the replacements accurate enough. :? But just out of interest do you mean the Parkside Dundas PA34?
And has anyone done this with any pictures that I can look at?

Alex if I manage to get it sorted I'll try to post somehting about it. :)
Thanks
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Re: E2e's 2017 4 Wheel Coach Competition Entry

Postby alex3410 » Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:51 pm

:D Thanks - minds racing thinking of possible implementations now :lol:

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Re: E2e's 2017 4 Wheel Coach Competition Entry

Postby TimberSurf » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:30 am

End2end wrote: Would R1 definatly have to be 470R and the Capacitor (I take it this is for stay alive purposes) be 470uF according to the maths with calculating that the resistors on each LED are 1KOhm and cannot be changed.
These extra componants will need to be bought so any links to suitable componants would be a great help but I need to check if I have some 470R's as somehow I thought I'd bought some already.

Advice on electronics:- you don't always have to follow a circuit diagram to the letter! Experimentation is good! (also mother of invention when you don't have everything to hand) I can do the maths if I really want to, but rarely do. (i.e. 390R or 560R would be fine). Simple fix, two 1K resistors in parallel gives 500R. I don't know what voltage you tested the rig on, but DCC is probably higher, so a 1K instead of the 470R might be OK, I think the light level is too high anyway {my preference}
Capacitor:- critical that its voltage is higher than any voltage supplied. So as DCC can be anything from 17v to :o 22v, it needs to be 25V or above , 35V or 40V would do, the issue is that as the max voltage increases, so does the size of capacitor. Don't buy 16V! You may have to sacrifice capacity (be less than 470uF) to get it to fit (just means it wont last quite as long)
End2end wrote: And obviously again, this would all need to fit in the void underneath the coach perhaps soldered onto a peice of vero board somehow.
Re check those vids, most don't use veroboard, just solder the resistor, cap and bridge rec to each other to save space.

P.S. noticed (having just copied your text) that there are lots of spelling mistakes! I am not having a go, just wish to point out that if a red line appears under text as you write it, right click on the underlined word and it will offer spell check correction!
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Re: E2e's 2017 4 Wheel Coach Competition Entry

Postby TimberSurf » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:44 am

End2end wrote:The possible 470 Ohm resistors
End2end

If your going to "Play" with electronics, it might be wise to invest in a stock of a range of resistors!
Like:-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2125-Resistor ... A62wX20r1Q
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/E12-Series-Re ... SwrklU7Lds
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/500pcs-50-Val ... SwW6JYX3H8
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/600-Pcs-1-4w- ... Swa~BYRSGy
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Re: E2e's 2017 4 Wheel Coach Competition Entry

Postby TimberSurf » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:53 am

End2end wrote:I cannot seem to find the correct bridge rectifiers yet from ebay but I'm still not sure how to wire it up on vero board.
End2end

Some sample examples:-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20Pcs-DIY-SMD ... Sw-0xYV5VY
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10Pcs-Sep-Bri ... SwImRYIPOq
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-St-SMD-Brid ... Sw~FNUae0u
Or four 1N4001 wired as per the schematic
Anything 0.5A or above
Anything 50V or above
Wire as per schematic, track via 470R to one (either) squiggly line, other track to other squiggly line, + to + of cap and - to - of cap then on to 1K/Led's.
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Re: E2e's 2017 4 Wheel Coach Competition Entry

Postby End2end » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:29 am

Thanks for your replies Timbersurf. I'll go through each one
TimberSurf wrote:I don't know what voltage you tested the rig on, but DCC is probably higher, so a 1K instead of the 470R might be OK, I think the light level is too high anyway {my preference}

9v square battery. And I think your right they are a little YELLOW!! :lol:
TimberSurf wrote:Capacitor:- Don't buy 16V! You may have to sacrifice capacity (be less than 470uF) to get it to fit (just means it wont last quite as long)

Ahh brillaint. That's made it a lot easier to find the correct ones. 25-40v @ 470uF. :)
End2end wrote: And obviously again, this would all need to fit in the void underneath the coach perhaps soldered onto a peice of vero board somehow.
Now the family has all left I did have a measure up of the void and it is roughly 36mm long by 21mm wide with 6mm deep but this could be extended to around 10mm and still be hidden underneath. The bottom of the wheels are roughly 13mm.
TimberSurf wrote:Re check those vids, most don't use veroboard, just solder the resistor, cap and bridge rec to each other to save space.

Ordinarily on a normal sized coach Id porbably go for that method as it could be more easily hidden inside but as these are so small I'd just find it a lot easier to work through them all in the controlled space of the vero board rather than flailing wiring. Nice and tidy like :D
With the mesurement I got from the void I think I'm looking at a peice of vero board with the maximum of 8 x 14 useable holes although I can't really get the smallest size possible for the actual piece I need until I have the components in front of me to see how they fit.
TimberSurf wrote:P.S. noticed (having just copied your text) that there are lots of spelling mistakes!

Ha haa.... yes we can blame the pain killers for that. :lol:
Funny though.....I never see any red lines but I don't have any spell correction installed.
One other thing I didn't but should have mentioned is I'd need to buy from a UK ebay supplier due to time restrictions rather than the Far East.
Thanks
End2end
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Re: E2e's 2017 4 Wheel Coach Competition Entry

Postby End2end » Wed Jan 04, 2017 2:15 am

OK I think I have narrowed down the search to these 2 products...
The capacitors 470uF @ 35v - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Electrolytic- ... 6SjZAMxcnw
The bridge rectifiers 1.5A Single Phase @ 50V - http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-5A-Single-P ... TNA99k0yUQ
I'm not 100% sure so can anyone help double check those for what I need before I go ahead and purchase them please?
As I have 1K resistors I think I will replace the 470R with a 1K as you suggested Timbersurf to dull the lights a little.
Thanks
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Re: E2e's 2017 4 Wheel Coach Competition Entry

Postby TimberSurf » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:38 am

Those links are fine
Get 10 Bridge recs, only pence more and they may be useful for other projects
As they do 25V cap get it, as it will be fine and smaller
P.S. Use RS Components or Farnell to look up components specifications, they have spec sheets for all they sell (great reference source)
35V is 20mm long x 10mm Dia, the 25V is 16mm long x 10mm Dia
I realise you need em quick, but just posted links as examples, actual supplier for best price, feedback, and delivery takes lots of research time, so down to you.
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Re: E2e's 2017 4 Wheel Coach Competition Entry

Postby Boïschaut » Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:58 am

Bufferstop wrote: I'm talking about the horrible slab of black plastic that extends down from the buffer beam to support the large D coupler. Just like the one on this wagon:

Hornby%20lwagon%20chassis.jpg


If you cut repeatedly and lightly with a pointed craft knife blade across the bottom of the buffer beam you can then chop away at the bulk of the plastic with snips and clean up with a small file. Once it's all gone, stick on a couple of those PD NEM pocket mounts that Dad-1 recommends then fit it with whichever NEM coupler you prefer. It will make a fantastic difference to the appearance.


Very good idea. Did you write a thread about that ?

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Re: E2e's 2017 4 Wheel Coach Competition Entry

Postby Bufferstop » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:56 am

No I never took it that far as I intended to try to find an elegant solution to the other Hornby failing. Actually the failing isn't of this incarnation of Hornby, it dates right back to when that chassis was part of the range of Triang (Rovex) Trains, that is the buffer height is at least 1mm too great.
I fear I will never find an acceptable solution. The best I've come up with is fit smaller wheels, but somehow the change of wheel size seems very noticeable. Their deliberately introduced error is in the distance between the underside of the solebar and the top of the axle box, which was there from the very first models they made.
We make rude comments these days about pizza cutters and steamroller wheels, but they are nothing compared to the original Triang plastic wheel + half axle which was mounted in pairs on a steel rod to give the axle some strength. They were a fiendish solution to one of those problems that simply knock on from one compromise to another. The complete sequence of dodgy decisions started with a lack of faith on the part of Rovex engineers that the plastic they were using could form flanges small enough yet strong enough to stand up to handling by children. It's effects are still to be found in the current products, some sixty plus years and half a world away.

I gave up, the coaches and wagons which still use these outdated chassis, are only worth the value you want to attach to them, unless there's a huge percentage of sentimentality they aren't going to score very highly on any count.
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Re: E2e's 2017 4 Wheel Coach Competition Entry

Postby End2end » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:49 pm

TimberSurf wrote:Those links are fine
Get 10 Bridge recs, only pence more and they may be useful for other projects
As they do 25V cap get it, as it will be fine and smaller.

Thanks for your help Timbersurf. All now bought including the pick-up springs so will hopefully all be with me within a couple of days. :D
I sketched out a rough diagram of the 8 x 14 hole vero boards and where everything might go but once I have all the componants they may even end up smaller.
Bufferstop wrote:that is the buffer height is at least 1mm too great.
Yes this is what I mean Bufferstop about not having the skill to do an accurate job on them. :? My thinking being, just for these a wand with magnet would suffice for uncoupling.

Another improvement that has been going around my head of late is to remove the weight and change it for a peice of heavier lead so the magnet wand does not try to pick up the carriages when uncoupling. Experiements needed there!
Thanks
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Re: E2e's 2017 4 Wheel Coach Competition Entry

Postby Firefly16 » Wed Jan 04, 2017 11:12 pm

Those 'bumper car' couplers have spoiled many another model! Another solution would be to leave the original hook in place and replace the bar with one formed to the same profile from .6mm gardeners' wire with the PVC stripped off (I have found that left on, the covering renders superglue type adhesives ineffectual).

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Re: E2e's 2017 4 Wheel Coach Competition Entry

Postby End2end » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:08 pm

OK I think I've cracked the circuit on paper but could one of you more experienced chaps just have a quick glance over it to see if I've messed it up please before the last of the componants turn up (Hopefully tommorrow) and I can start to build them.
4WCLightingDiag.JPG
4WCLightingDiag.JPG (44.94 KiB) Viewed 681 times


I've managed to shrink the circuit onto a 6 x 6 holes board.
The Diagonal red lines under the bridge rectifier are where I will cut the track so no power passes through.
One thing I definatly need to know is, at the track power pick up positions A. and B. does the polarity matter :?:

Some may notice there is no second resistor. I have soldered a resistor per LED on the seperate lighting bar which will connect to the positive and negative on the extreme left and right of this board.
Thanks
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Re: E2e's 2017 4 Wheel Coach Competition Entry

Postby alex3410 » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:43 pm

if it does matter about input polarity, you will have trouble if you place it on the track the wrong way around?

its way above my head :lol: but fascinating stuff& i am following it with interest


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