Triang running on modern track

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Vonsworld
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Triang running on modern track

Postby Vonsworld » Wed Nov 11, 2015 6:15 pm

Hi,

I've long been interested in repairing and servicing older locomotives,but so far my oldest Locos come from the 1970's

I am looking at buying a Triang Loco and coaches from around 1960 and would like some advice about running them on modern day set track. I have been looking at a Pullman DMU, Transcontinental or dock shunter.

I understand the Triang wheel flanges are too big, but have found a supplier who may be able to send me some wheel replacements for the Loco. However what can I do about the coaches?

Is it possible to fit modern day hornby axles, with the pointed ends, to Triang carriages?

Please could you give me some advice or point me in the direction of a good article on the subject?

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Re: Triang running on modern track

Postby flying scotsman123 » Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:12 pm

Not sure I can help you on wheels but I understand the potential problems with flanges catching on rail chairs is only present on code 75 track, if you're using code 100 then I think you should be fine.
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Re: Triang running on modern track

Postby GeoFF03 » Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:41 pm

flanges catching on rail chairs is only present on code 75 track, if you're using code 100 then I think you should be fine.


There would still be an issue with the shallower flange ways on the point frogs. As to re-wheeling coaches, it would depend on the age and whether they have open axle boxes or not. The older open ones are still possible if you fit brass pinpoint bearings.

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Re: Triang running on modern track

Postby castlespitfire » Wed Nov 11, 2015 7:59 pm

Hi Vonsworld, I to have soft spot for some of the early Tri-ang models. I have a early Jinty and a Princess which are from the late 50s. from my to do box, Both run on Peco code 100 track. I did re profiled the wheels and flanges when I rebuilt them but that sounds more difficult than it was in fact. I just turned wheels in a power drill on slowish speed and filed the backs until they looked better and more like modern ones. Then took the flanges down a bit using again a more modern wheel as a pattern. All done by eye, nothing special, and they run just fine. When locos are on track they even look better as well. After all if anything does go wrong you can replace wheels with Romfords or something . You will be surprised how little you have to remove from older wheels to get them to run on modern track. John

PS forgot to mention. Took down the flanges to clear the frogs on points properly.
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Re: Triang running on modern track

Postby Bufferstop » Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:20 pm

There are firms who produce replacement wheels for Triang locos, both steam and diesel. Ultrascale is the one that I've used, wheels are great, delivery can be a bit protracted. Open axlebox rolling stock can be adapted to take current Hornby replacement wheels, by running a drill through the axlebox and pressing in a brass bearing cup. Then filling the hole with a bit of plastic rod. Back in the "days when" it was not unknown for impatient types to put the wheels in first then push a matchstick in from each end, whilst rotating the wheels until they formed their own bearings. Then snip off the ends with side cutters. Rumour has it that the art is still practised in certain quarters. Obviously this is applicable to bogie stock but there is an alternative. If you also intend to change the couplers, consider replacing the bogie with a modern one, wheels, couplers and bogie in one go. It may involve plating over the pivot hole with a piece of plasticard.
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Vonsworld
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Re: Triang running on modern track

Postby Vonsworld » Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:17 pm

Many thanks for your helpful replies.

I think I'll try modifying the wheels myself rather than buying replacements.

I have a small Draper electric drill from a grinding set which can run at slow speed, so I thought I would connect an axle to that with one wheel attached and run it slowly against a fairly smooth file. I also have a set of electronic callipers to measure the flanges and compare them with their modern counterparts.

I've done a lot of work on Hornby Locos, but nothing on triang yet. Could you tell me is it easy to remove the wheels from the power bogie on a Triang locomotive? Also can you pull the wheels off the axle and set the back to back measurement just like with Hornby?

On the Triang carriages can you pop the plastic wheels and axle out of the bogie frame without damaging it, just like with modern kit?

When I was about 6 in 1970 my parents bought me a Triang Pullman set which a few years later I gave to a friend from school. I've been speaking to him on Facebook and he recons he has still got it stored away in his parents loft! So I intend to bribe him with a few pints one weekend in the hopes that he will go in the loft and retrieve it for me! Another one for the collection :)

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markS&D
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Re: Triang running on modern track

Postby markS&D » Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:11 pm

Vonsworld wrote:Many thanks for your helpful replies.

I think I'll try modifying the wheels myself rather than buying replacements.

I have a small Draper electric drill from a grinding set which can run at slow speed, so I thought I would connect an axle to that with one wheel attached and run it slowly against a fairly smooth file. I also have a set of electronic callipers to measure the flanges and compare them with their modern counterparts.

I've done a lot of work on Hornby Locos, but nothing on triang yet. Could you tell me is it easy to remove the wheels from the power bogie on a Triang locomotive? Also can you pull the wheels off the axle and set the back to back measurement just like with Hornby?

On the Triang carriages can you pop the plastic wheels and axle out of the bogie frame without damaging it, just like with modern kit?

When I was about 6 in 1970 my parents bought me a Triang Pullman set which a few years later I gave to a friend from school. I've been speaking to him on Facebook and he recons he has still got it stored away in his parents loft! So I intend to bribe him with a few pints one weekend in the hopes that he will go in the loft and retrieve it for me! Another one for the collection :)


On the old triang coaches/trucks, that have the open ended axleboxes, you can push the metal axle through to remove the plastic wheels.

When it comes to the loco wheels such as on a steam or diesel, you will find that one side has a plastic insulator between wheel and axle, just like later Hornby models. you will also find that the wheels are very thick , so when you try to move them out to the wider back to back measurement of more modern locos, the wheels will stick out too far.

They were after all designed to go around very sharp train set curves.
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Vonsworld
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Re: Triang running on modern track

Postby Vonsworld » Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:21 pm

Thanks for your helpful suggestions :)

What would you recommend for pulling the Triang driving wheels off their axles without damaging them?

I have a gear puller for X03/04 motors but it's frame is not quite big enough to go around wheels.

I could try tapping the axle back through the wheel using another axle and a hammer, but I just wondered if there is a proper extraction tool for the job?

I can then put the axle and remaining wheel into an electric drill and start filing down the flanges.

:)

castlespitfire
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Re: Triang running on modern track

Postby castlespitfire » Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:00 pm

Vonsworld wrote:Thanks for your helpful suggestions :)

What would you recommend for pulling the Triang driving wheels off their axles without damaging them?

I have a gear puller for X03/04 motors but it's frame is not quite big enough to go around wheels.

I could try tapping the axle back through the wheel using another axle and a hammer, but I just wondered if there is a proper extraction tool for the job?

I can then put the axle and remaining wheel into an electric drill and start filing down the flanges.

:)

Hi Von ,,,,,,,Have always found that with old Tri-ang locos the wheels pull off quite easy with a wriggle. When replacing them put them back with new centre inserts if they are needed. They are cheap enough. if you need to remove the the axle gear, normally just gently tap out the axle. Maybe I have been lucky up to now but have never needed the help of an expensive puller to take out old Tri-ang drivers. The Tri-ang wheels are solid little lumps. You don't have to be to fussy using callipers and measuring, have found my eye good enough. Depends how far you want to go I suppose. You dont have to remove very much metal to achieve good running over Peco points, have found. ........John
It was working yesterday last time I used it................... John

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Bufferstop
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Re: Triang running on modern track

Postby Bufferstop » Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:28 pm

You can certainly skim some off the face of power bogie wheels to slim them down. The wheels from the pre ring field bogie drop out once you removed the keeper plate. You'll need to take some of the back, to reduce the flange thickness, some off the face to make them thinner overall and some off the diameter over the flanges to avoi bumping over the chairs. Putting them back might need a bit more care than the Margate workers had to manage. On steam locos you may get away with not taking anything off the face. The spokes weren't very deeply moulded, you might lose them completely if you skim the front. The 0-6-0 wouldn't be a problem but any outside cylinder types might not have sufficient clearance between the wheels and cylinders to push them out any further.
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Vonsworld
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Re: Triang running on modern track

Postby Vonsworld » Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:27 pm

Thanks I'll give that a go tomorrow.

One last thought, I have a transcontinental diesel now from about 1960 which has the same motor assembly as the dock authority shunter.

I believe system 6 track was introduced in 1970, so presumably all Hornby locos after that date were compatible with the new track. Hornby were still making the dock shunter at the same time, so I guess these must have had slimmer wheels and smaller flanges?

So if I buy dock shunter from that period, which is only suitable for spares, do you think I could simply swap the wheels over to the transcontinental?

Might be worth a try :)

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Re: Triang running on modern track

Postby Suzie » Mon Nov 16, 2015 1:08 am

The early Triang locos will not run on system-6 track - the flanges bump along the sleepers! Later Triang-Hornby versions of the same locos using the same power bogies just had new wheels with lower flanges - the flanges still kept their same thickness because although they will run on system-6 and Peco code 100 the flanges jam in code 75 flangeways (making for very rapid stops).

Buying Ultrascale wheels for old Triang locos is on the whole pointless because it will be cheaper to buy a more modern version of the loco that already has suitable wheels - where it will be required I guess is with the Transcontinental and similar which was not made recently with a new mechanism. Turning the wheels down in a lathe might be a better idea.

Why not track down some Super-4 or System-3 track and not have to worry? The older original Rovex and system-2 track with the grey base tends to be unusable because of shrinking plastic which makes the gauge more suitable for 3mm scale (mine now has a gauge of around 14mm), but I am sure that Super-4 will run OK.

In my experience Triang loco wheels are quite prone to falling off the axles when in use, so it will be a good idea to do something about the centres if having to adjust the back to back by a method other than turning on the axle.

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Re: Triang running on modern track

Postby Bufferstop » Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:39 am

Watch out for the wheels if buying a later version just to get them. For a very short period, some came fitted with a one piece Nylatron gear/axle assembly and all metal wheels. Apart from the gears it's difficult to see with the bogie in-situ. IIRC it was the DMU which first appeared so fitted.
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rejrob
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Re: Triang running on modern track

Postby rejrob » Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:07 pm

Hi buffer, old chap(Or not so old)?I have on or two triang units where the wheels have been changed by me.An L1 and most of my EMU<s have succumbed.I fitted an axle and wheel(not the insulated one) in the chuck of a pillar drill and used a good file to reduce both the width of flange and the knurling.When it came to the insulated wheel remove the insulation and I used a 0BA(I think) set bolt which was locked with nut either side of the wheel.The bolt was then put in the chuck and reduced.Markits do make axles suitable for triang with either a knurled centre or not and modern Markits (Romford wheels can be fitted to them Go on his web site and you will find all All the best Ron

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Re: Triang running on modern track

Postby Bufferstop » Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:26 pm

Hi Ron you really have to love an old Triang loco to do it the Markits/Romford way. I did it to resuscitate an original Nellie. I think the wheels and axles cost about twice as much as the loco. I added Dapol pug cylinders and slide bars, plus wire handrails. Nellie had never looked so glamorous! With the wheels 1mm smaller and the X04 overhauled it runs beautifully.
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