Hornby 4Fs?

[markS&D]

From past experience with those old tender drive 4F's 'Airfix/Hornby' which are basically the same, Hornby fitted slightly better profile wheels to their version.

They are not worth the effort, unless you want to spend hour after hour cleaning your tracks after you have used it. Plus they are not accurate in a lot of major dimensions.

Go for the Bachmann example every time

[Bigmet]

... I've got a little hornby 0-6-0 to try my first loco conversion on, bit less of a risk...

That's the way to get started, in order to build confidence that a good end result is possible. Once you know that you can make something good out of existing RTR parts it is almost the case that the sky is the limit. Low risk of a RTR manufacturer duplicating what you have made, by going for subjects from a smaller company like the NSR.

I'll make a suggestion for the future concerning that North Staffs 0-6-0T. The body and fittings are so similar in proportion to the SECR C class 0-6-0 that all this needs is the cab sides and roof removing, and new side tanks and the bunker end of the loco building, and it would be done. Usefully, the Great British Locomotives series offered the C class copied from the Bachmann model, and it was one of the best in the series. Obtain one of those and you would be cooking with gas, as it is an all plastic moulding, so very easy to modify.

[flying scotsman123]

Thanks bigmet, once again the font of all knowledge! I shall bear it in mind when I get to it. Things to do before starting my first loco include finish the buildings I've started, then get track down in the new year at some point!

[D605Eagle]

Thanks for the advice, a Bachmann 3F looks like an excellent alternative, cheers.

If anyone's interested, it's destined to become either an NSR H or H1 class, depending on whether I fancy cutting out the Belpaire firebox or not! I'll post something up about it when I get round to it, but could be a little while yet!

oooh oooh ooooh! now I'm listening!

[GeraldH]

Hornby loco drive 4Fs are currently being sold off at Hattons for £58 and I couldn't resist any longer - despite the traction tyres. I have read elsewhere that the wheel treads with the traction tyres pull off fairly easily and can be replaced with wheel treads without traction tyre grooves. Failing that I guess the grooved wheels on the geared axle can be pulled off and replaced with plain ones. One just needs to get the quartering right.

This raises a couple of questions. Are the loco wheels from the Hornby tender drive locos the same as those used on the loco drive model and do they have the same diameter axle ends? I ask because the tender drive wheelsets are much cheaper than the loco drive ones.

Is there any room in the loco drive 4F for extra weight? It looks to me like the front of the boiler might have space for some lead?

[Bigmet]

Or for a start just remove the traction tyres, then see how it looks and runs?

I like the sound of taking the plain metal tyres off the loco wheelsets of the tender drive original, and swapping these for the grooved tyres. Hornby have typically done as little as possible in their updatings of the original Airfix loco toolings. The only one I know well is the N2, and for sure the driven wheelsets are exactly as when this model was first seen released by Mainline, (Airfix having exited the model raiway market) the somewhat deeper flange than is usual nowadays a visual giveaway.

[GeraldH]

The 4F has arrived and it's quite a nice little loco - especially for for £58. It runs well and It looks quite smart with a very nice satin black paint finish. There's also no fragile bits to break off, so you don't have to take a deep breath everytime you pick it up . It would make a nice addition to the Railroad range, along with the other ex Airfix locos.

I'm leaving the tyres on for the moment, but I've bought some new loco wheels (from the old tender drive model) which will hopefully fit, so that I can get rid of the tyres later on. Unfortunately the metal tyres do not seem to be removable from the replacement wheels, so it looks like the centre wheels on the loco will have to be completely replaced to get rid of the traction tyres. That means getting the quartering right, which may be tricky. I'm assuming the replacement wheels are the exactly the same diameter with the same sized axles, but I've not checked precisely yet. I'll try running it without the tyres first, as suggested, to get a feel for the potential before I commence surgery .

[Mike Parkes]

If you can disloge the motor suffciently to allow the wheels to be turned by hand, that way should be able to resolve any quartering issues. Might be worth dropping the wheels in a bowl of very hot water to see if the tyres will shift.

[Bigmet]

It's easy enough getting the old tyres off the loco wheelset centres, you do it the way the real railway did it: cut through. Very carefully as you get near the plastic centre of course. A cutting disc is ideal for the job.

Removing tyres from the spare wheelset, cut away the plastic inner.

Now the fun bit, new tyre onto the plastic centre. Freeze the centre, warm the tyre in boiling water. Again, the same principle as employed in the railway works where they heated the tyre in a gas furnace and dropped the ambient temperature wheel centre in. No quartering troubles this way either, but the centre needs to be seated true in the tyre: press down onto a plane surface like a plate glass mirror. Do one side at a time, freeze, insert in warm tyre, freeze, insert in second warm tyre.

[GeraldH]

... I've bought some new loco wheels (from the old tender drive model) which will hopefully fit, so that I can get rid of the tyres later on...

Well today was later on and having accidentally poured part of a hot drink over the 4F, I decided it was good time to get rid of those pesky traction tyres. Fortunately most of the drink went on the body, a bit soapy water on the body and a litle bit of re-oiling sorted that out.

It turns out that the wheels from the recent tender drive locos have a larger opening, which is too large for the axle end in the loco drive model. The alternative approach of swapping the metal tyres, also looks like a non-starter. The metal tyres on the wheels are very firmly fixed to the plastic centres and I don't think they can be removed non-destructively. I had quite a job getting the original tyred wheel back on correctly quartered . The traction tyres it seems will have to stay, which means that the loco may not become a long term resident .

[Ken Shabby]

I recently bought a unused and boxed Airfix 4F for around £20. It was to replace my original long gone 4F which was my first ever loco bought for me by my late father back in 1981. As this was purely an exercise in nostalgia I was happy to ignore the noisy tender drive and too big splashers.
Apart from some lubrication and painting the hand rails black I've not had to do anything to it.
It runs well and can shift 35 wagons, having said that you'd be mad to pay for the new Hornby model when you could have the Bachmann one instead.
As for the 3F, I'm still using a Triang one.

Ken

[Bufferstop]

For what it's worth I've run several traction tyred chassis with the tyres removed and not had any trouble without the edges of the groove catching on the rails. Neither has the loss of traction seemed to be a problem, a little extra ballast ought to compensate, along with a good controller, or DCC settings, to avoid wheel slip when starting.

[GeraldH]

For what it's worth I've run several traction tyred chassis with the tyres removed and not had any trouble without the edges of the groove catching on the rails. Neither has the loss of traction seemed to be a problem, a little extra ballast ought to compensate, along with a good controller, or DCC settings, to avoid wheel slip when starting.

I've followed up on this and now removed the traction tyres . The 4F runs fine without them and there's no problems over the points. The slot for the tyres is actually quite shallow and barely visible when the loco is in the track. It's surprising how much the loco hauls and makes you wonder why they put tyres on the loco in the first place. Now that the loco picks up from the un-tyred wheels, the draggy tender pickups could also be removed improving haulage still further. As I don't use DCC, I may completely remove the wiring from the tender and modify the linkage so that the tender can be separated from the loco.

I have also checked the axle diameter of the loco wheels. They seem to be 3mm, which is the same as the old tender-drive loco wheels. This may allow me to put the tender drive wheel set on the loco-drive chassis with the latters brass bearings and gears. I would then have a wheelset with no slots. Transferring the gear to the tender drive axle may, however, be a bit risky and perhaps the axle needs to be knurled first?

[Bufferstop]

I've never understood Hornby's decision to fit traction tyres to the 0-6-0 chassis. For years they have turned out the original Triang chassis with the centre wheels either flangeless or undersized, effectively turning it into a long wheel based 0-4-0. The only likely problem with fitting a full sized flanged wheel would have been 1st radius curves, which would be exactly the same when a rubber tyred wheel was fitted. Seems like a solution to a non existent problem to me.

[GeraldH]

For what it's worth I've run several traction tyred chassis with the tyres removed and not had any trouble without the edges of the groove catching on the rails. Neither has the loss of traction seemed to be a problem, a little extra ballast ought to compensate, along with a good controller, or DCC settings, to avoid wheel slip when starting.

I've followed up on this and now removed the traction tyres . The 4F runs fine without them and there's no problems over the points. The slot for the tyres is actually quite shallow and barely visible when the loco is in the track. It's surprising how much the loco hauls and makes you wonder why they put tyres on the loco in the first place. Now that the loco picks up from the un-tyred wheels, the draggy tender pickups could also be removed improving haulage still further. As I don't use DCC, I may completely remove the wiring from the tender and modify the linkage so that the tender can be separated from the loco.

I have also checked the axle diameter of the loco wheels. They seem to be 3mm, which is the same as the old tender-drive loco wheels. This may allow me to put the tender drive wheel set on the loco-drive chassis with the latters brass bearings and gears. I would then have a wheelset with no slots. Transferring the gear to the tender drive axle may, however, be a bit risky and perhaps the axle needs to be knurled first?

Well it turns out that the tender drive loco axles are actually a slightly larger diameter than the axles in the loco drive version. This makes it impossible to transfer the brass bearings and final drive gear to the tender drive wheelset. So one pretty much has to live with the traction tyres, or a central wheelset with no tyres and a groove .