Hornby 4Fs?

Discuss Hornby Model Railway products and related topics here. This includes (Lima, Rivarossi, Jouef, Electrotren).
Mike Parkes
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Re: Hornby 4Fs?

Postby Mike Parkes » Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:56 am

I got hold of a set of spare driving wheels for the loco drive version and swopped them round. I found it was possible to push the metal tyres off the wheels so that a non traction tyre fitted tyre is used to replace that on the centre set.

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GeraldH
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Re: Hornby 4Fs?

Postby GeraldH » Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:28 pm

Mike Parkes wrote:I got hold of a set of spare driving wheels for the loco drive version and swopped them round. I found it was possible to push the metal tyres off the wheels so that a non traction tyre fitted tyre is used to replace that on the centre set.


How did you get the metal tyres off? I've tried using a fair amount of pressure without success. I've also put a wheelset in the freezer to see if that would help. I got the impression that any greater pressure would destroy the wheel. It almost seemed as though the rim was glued or welded onto the wheel centre?

I do like the simplicity and robustness of the Hornby 4F. If I can sort the tyres out and have a separable tender it could become a long term favourite.
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Mike Parkes
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Re: Hornby 4Fs?

Postby Mike Parkes » Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:44 pm

They came off relatively easily as I recall both on those provided with the loco and the spare set I bought - was quite surprised as I was all geared up to have to swop the entire wheels round on the axles.

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Re: Hornby 4Fs?

Postby Bigmet » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:37 am

I would suggest trying heat to remove the tyres with minimal damage. Do the experiment on the wheel that you are stripping the plain tyre from, as that is the plastic inner that will not see further use. Start with water that you can just bear to have your hand in for the heating, and work up from there. If you can rig a short round post on the workbench that will support the plastic centre while you are pushing the rim off, that should make the removal easier.

Mike Parkes
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Re: Hornby 4Fs?

Postby Mike Parkes » Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:16 pm

Thinking more I think what happened was I went to pull one of the driving wheels off an axle and pulled the tyre off instead which altered me to the fact that little force was needed to shift the tyres.

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GeraldH
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Re: Hornby 4Fs?

Postby GeraldH » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:27 am

This very useful Youtube video shows how to replace the tyred rims on a Hornby Schools.

Model Railways 18 - Improving Hornby Schools class wheels and grip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StZqIuIqV_g

I assume the 4F wheels are of similar construction and will probably give it a go at some stage. It would be nice to remove the rims in a less destructive fashion, if possible. I fear that the rims that I have on the tender drive wheelset may be different to those on the loco drive wheelset, so I may have to get a new loco-drive wheelset.
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GeraldH
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Re: Hornby 4Fs?

Postby GeraldH » Thu Nov 30, 2017 5:26 pm

Just in case anyone is still keen to rid their Hornby 4F of its traction tyres... After reading that the coefficients of expansion were different for metal and plastic, I decided to leave the tyred wheels in the freezer overnight. I'd tried the freezer technique before, but I only left the wheels in there for an hour or so. I just took the wheels out and the metal rims easily pulled off the plastic centres. I've now bought a spare wheelset with non-tyred rims and they've just gone in the freezer. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have finally solved the problem :) .
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Peterm
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Re: Hornby 4Fs?

Postby Peterm » Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:15 pm

As in gudgeon pins and pistons in engines. Pins in the freezer and pistons in the oven. Some ball joints were kept in the freezer too. More than one way to skin a cat. :)
Pete.

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D605Eagle
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Re: Hornby 4Fs?

Postby D605Eagle » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:28 am

GeraldH wrote:Just in case anyone is still keen to rid their Hornby 4F of its traction tyres... After reading that the coefficients of expansion were different for metal and plastic, I decided to leave the tyred wheels in the freezer overnight. I'd tried the freezer technique before, but I only left the wheels in there for an hour or so. I just took the wheels out and the metal rims easily pulled off the plastic centres. I've now bought a spare wheelset with non-tyred rims and they've just gone in the freezer. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have finally solved the problem :) .

Thanks for that Gerald, where did you get the spare wheelsets from? Ebay?

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GeraldH
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Re: Hornby 4Fs?

Postby GeraldH » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:50 am

D605Eagle wrote:
GeraldH wrote:Just in case anyone is still keen to rid their Hornby 4F of its traction tyres... After reading that the coefficients of expansion were different for metal and plastic, I decided to leave the tyred wheels in the freezer overnight. I'd tried the freezer technique before, but I only left the wheels in there for an hour or so. I just took the wheels out and the metal rims easily pulled off the plastic centres. I've now bought a spare wheelset with non-tyred rims and they've just gone in the freezer. Hopefully tomorrow I'll have finally solved the problem :) .

Thanks for that Gerald, where did you get the spare wheelsets from? Ebay?


I got the spare wheelset from Peter's Spares. The price is a bit steep, but slightly cheaper on their website than on Ebay. It may be that the steel tyres from the driving wheels from tender drive locos fit, which are much cheaper, but it's a bit of a risk given that the axle diameter has changed on the loco drive wheelsets. I've got some tender drive ones lying around that I bought for this project, so I may test them out for future reference.

I've just transferred some un-tyred rims to the previously tyred wheels on the Peter's Spare's wheelset. Unfortunately the brass bearings on the replacement wheelset seem to be fractionally larger than those on the original wheels and they won't drop into the chassis??? I've tried a moderate amount of force, but they just won't go in. I've checked the part number and it is correct. I've now put the original tyred wheelset in the freezer and will transfer some un-tyred rims to them and report back. This is becoming a bit of a saga :) .
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GeraldH
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Re: Hornby 4Fs?

Postby GeraldH » Sat Dec 02, 2017 1:39 pm

Just to give you the conclusion to the saga and in case anyone else wants to attempt this. The original wheels came out of the freezer and the rims would not budge, even with significant force. In the end I had to remove the bearings from the original tyred wheelset and transfer them to the Peter's Spares (PS) wheelset.

It appears that there are two different wheelsets, made in different batches[?], for the loco-drive Hornby 4F. One batch, which came installed on my 4F, has rims which seem to be almost welded, or glued, on and appear to be impossible to remove non-destructively. The other batch, which came from PS, have rims which can be pulled off fairly easily. The PS ones have slightly different coloured brass bearings which are fractionally larger and are a slightly tighter fit. After a lot of fiddling and quite an expense, my 4F now has fully flanged non-tyred wheels. It runs superbly and can still haul a significant amount. It really didn't need tyres. Given the hassle involved in this exercise, any sane person would probably either put up with the tyres, or buy the Bachmann one; but I do prefer the robustness of the Hornby model.

4FNoTyres.JPG
Last edited by GeraldH on Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mike Parkes
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Re: Hornby 4Fs?

Postby Mike Parkes » Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:22 pm

Getting rid of traction tyres is always IMO money well spent as it they a prime cause of mucky track.

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Peterm
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Re: Hornby 4Fs?

Postby Peterm » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:56 pm

Mike Parkes wrote:Getting rid of traction tyres is always IMO money well spent as it they a prime cause of mucky track.

Agreed. A good job well done Gerald.
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D605Eagle
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Re: Hornby 4Fs?

Postby D605Eagle » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:46 pm

Gerald, maybe cutting through the tyre on your original wheels to let them spring off the centers, and then fit the easily removed tyres from the peter's spares wheelset?

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Re: Hornby 4Fs?

Postby GeraldH » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:43 pm

D605Eagle wrote:Gerald, maybe cutting through the tyre on your original wheels to let them spring off the centers, and then fit the easily removed tyres from the peter's spares wheelset?


In the end I didn't need to do this, as I had a full set of three driving wheels from Peter's Spare's. I used the Peter's Spares (PS) centre wheel hubs with a PS rim from one of the outer wheels. The wheels were mounted on the PS axle, but with the original bearings. If the PS wheelset had also had glued/welded on rims, then I would have had to cut the rims on the centre wheel and then cut the hub out of an outer wheel to get a spare fully flanged rim. This is what the chap on Youtube did with his Hornby Schools https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StZqIuIqV_g. Of course there's always the risk when cutting the rim that you damage the hub. Even removing the cut rim could damage the hub, if there's some kind of bond there.

I was toying with getting another 4F and repeating the exercise, but once is enough! :) . It's a shame as for £58 (from Hattons), it's a nice little loco. It could be a useful part of the Railroad range, if it were re-released without tyres at a Railroad price.
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