Type 5 Ringfield Tender Motor Removal

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OO-IanA
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Type 5 Ringfield Tender Motor Removal

Postby OO-IanA » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:50 am

I have just bought a Hornby Flying Scotsman from eBay. It was bought cheap as the description stated the engine was a poor runner and stuttered a lot. From my perspective this turned out to a great deal as all the loco is in excellent condition and all it required was a good clean and service and she now runs very well indeed. However, I have been unable to clean the tender drive wheel pickups as this will involve removing the type 5 ringfield from the tender chassis, which I believe is held in place by two plastic clips which are visible on the underside but which don’t want to move much and raise the fear I may break them if using more force – this ultimately is my problem as I’m being a bit of wimp with these clips but I’d like some peace of mind about them.

What I would really like is to see the maintenance sheet which should describe the procedure for motor removal but as I have been unable to ascertain which model this Scotsman actually is I have not been able to find such a sheet, or indeed, anything that looks similar (as I assume this tender setup was used on many models). I have found service sheets 256B A3/ A4 super detail, although the loco is not a super detail one, and 259C A1 which mention produce codes for Flying Scotsman sets so no loco product code. Both these sheets match the basic components of the engine.
Could somebody please help in first outlining the procedure for motor removal and second suggest a way of identifying the loco product code? The body shell just states “Hornby” and “Made in China”.

A third question that has just sprung to mind is should the tender run smoothly without being attached to the main loco, as although the motor has contacts to the wheels, it has traction tyres that must hinder a good contact to the rails? Currently the tender will only stutter a bit when I nudge it on the track and will not run at all independently.

Sorry for what now is a long post and I hope I have made myself clear.

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alex3410
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Re: Type 5 Ringfield Tender Motor Removal

Postby alex3410 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:48 am

best to wait for someone with a bit more know how then me :lol:

but, my A4 tender driven loco took a fair amount of force to get the motor out - I think I have chipped to notch slightly doing so but it all went back together perfectly - I put a new (unused) motor in mine and it runs beautify now :D - it now has read wheels on the tender but you cant see them anyway!

I was under the impression that the loco provided one side of the power and the tender the other (positive and negative) implying it would not run without it being connected. From what i can remember mine did not move without being connected but don't hold me to it

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OO-IanA
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Re: Type 5 Ringfield Tender Motor Removal

Postby OO-IanA » Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:54 pm

The loco definitely provides power from both rails and the tender motor has contacts on each side - which I can see are dirty and need to be got at to clean. Like I say the tender does stutter when on the track by itself but just doesn't have good enough overall connectivity to run.

I'm probably being a bit OTT with wanting to clean the tender pick-ups as the whole loco runs fine when paired, and all six of the main wheels have a good connection with the track. But I can see the tender pick-ups are dirty and things like this niggle me; and eventually the motor will need a service at some point and I'd like to do that myself.

trooper
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Re: Type 5 Ringfield Tender Motor Removal

Postby trooper » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:33 pm

Leave well alone . The tender is NOT designed to run separately from the loco ie by itself. If it runs ok DO NOT TOUCH it. Why do people always want to fiddle with things ???
Carrying on

steviesparx
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Re: Type 5 Ringfield Tender Motor Removal

Postby steviesparx » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:49 am

trooper wrote:Leave well alone . The tender is NOT designed to run separately from the loco ie by itself. If it runs ok DO NOT TOUCH it. Why do people always want to fiddle with things ???


Surely fiddling with things is part of the hobby, or should you take anything that doesn't perform faultlessly straight to the nearest shop ? Not me, and I would suggest that most of my practical skills have been gained by fiddling, and yes sometimes breaking...

The tender should run on it's own thanks to it's additional pick-ups, but they can be picky, especially over points - connecting to the loco chassis provides additional pick-ups which greatly aid running and granted, this is how it's designed to operate.

You can remove the Ringfield from the chassis by releasing the clips mentioned, however there are wired connections to the chassis at the front ( where the drawbar connects ), so care would need to be taken when lifting the motor body out...

Personally I would clean the back of the tender wheels where the pick-ups rub, and if the loco and tender run OK I wouldn't fret too much about the pick-ups not being pristine...

Link to Hornby's service sheets is here...http://www.hornby.com/downloads/service ... 51/?page=2

There are a couple of 'Flying Scotsman' variations ( HSS 315 /316 ) but the tenders on these Chinese ones are the same...

Happy fiddling !

steviesparx
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Re: Type 5 Ringfield Tender Motor Removal

Postby steviesparx » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:57 am

Sorry mate, wrong service sheets ( it is very late ! )

Try these...http://www.hornbyguide.com/service_shee ... heetid=273

GWR_fan
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Re: Type 5 Ringfield Tender Motor Removal

Postby GWR_fan » Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:32 am

While the five pole drive does have pickups on both sides, the traction tyres basically negate their use. Thus tender may or may not run on its own.

Tim

trainlover23
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Re: Type 5 Ringfield Tender Motor Removal

Postby trainlover23 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:38 am

"The tender should run on it's own thanks to it's additional pick-ups, but they can be picky, especially over points - connecting to the loco chassis provides additional pick-ups which greatly aid running and granted, this is how it's designed to operate"

I think not it is the tender pick ups that are the additional pick ups the current on all tender drive locos is via the loco. The earlier versions did NOT have pick ups on the tender. Also the tender is not designed to run on its own

GWR_fan
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Re: Type 5 Ringfield Tender Motor Removal

Postby GWR_fan » Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:18 am

Yes you are correct, I was reading it as a five-pole and not as a 'Type 5' ringfield. Tender will pick up power on the right hand side drive wheels with the locomotive picking up power on the left side. Depending on the loco age it may pick up power on both sides on the locomotive. Thus as stated in the previous posting, a Type 5 ringfield tender will not run on its own. If it does then it is a later five-pole armature.

Tim

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Bufferstop
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Re: Type 5 Ringfield Tender Motor Removal

Postby Bufferstop » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:24 am

trooper wrote:Leave well alone . The tender is NOT designed to run separately from the loco ie by itself. If it runs ok DO NOT TOUCH it. Why do people always want to fiddle with things ???

[quote="steviesparx]Personally I would clean the back of the tender wheels where the pick-ups rub, and if the loco and tender run OK I wouldn't fret too much about the pick-ups not being pristine...[/quote]
In my experience, dirt ignored begets more dirt. I'd probe around the pickups gently with a stiffish small paint brush, then with leads clipped to the motor run it whilst cleaning the backs of the wheels with IPA/meths. If you've already loosened the dirt from around the pickups it will tend to come around on the back of the wheel whilst you are cleaning. You don't need to clean the face of the of the pickups, as long as there's no dirt on the sides and back to anchor some on the face the pressure will clear it away, along with the metal it removes from the back of the wheel, leaving its tell tale ring. If the wheels are drop-in take them out and polish out any scored rings on the backs. I use the small felt mop on a Dremel clone, with a drop of brasso on it, then clean with IPA. If you run locos with traction tyres the rails and wheel treads will be your major source of dirt.
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OO-IanA
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Re: Type 5 Ringfield Tender Motor Removal

Postby OO-IanA » Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:16 am

Thank you for all the helpful (and the one anti fiddle) suggestions and observations. I agree about "fiddling" being the way to be. Most of my fleet is / will be 2nd hand non-runners or poor runners as I have all the kit (and aptitude) to repair them. I can even do full body re-sprays as I am a keen modeler with an airbrush so badly worn body shells are not much of an issues. All the major spare parts and most transfers are readily available. It is not only more enjoyable doing this way but is also cheaper as I can't afford brand new locomotives.

I concur with the sentiment that the pick-ups are there and should be functioning to provide all the electrical rail contact possible. They were really filthy and acting like a magnet to collect more dirt and small fluff over time. Last night I did get the motor out - it is tight to lever the chassis plastic over the first metal lug on the motor body but, as this region is thick, the risk of damage is small. Having cleaned everything up the tender will run if the conditions are right like going round a curve where the wheel flanges get a chance of rail contact on the traction tyre side. All in all a job well done me thinks and I now have a great runner that doesn't look too bad for what it is - brought back to life with some good old "fiddling".

Once again thanks.

steviesparx
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Re: Type 5 Ringfield Tender Motor Removal

Postby steviesparx » Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:37 pm

trainlover23 wrote:
I think not it is the tender pick ups that are the additional pick ups the current on all tender drive locos is via the loco. The earlier versions did NOT have pick ups on the tender. Also the tender is not designed to run on its own


Did I say the tender was designed to run on it's own ? - No, I said... 'connecting to the loco chassis provides additional pick-ups which greatly aid running and granted, this is how it's designed to operate.'

Also the OP states '...Currently the tender will only stutter a bit when I nudge it on the track and will not run at all independently.'

This suggests the tender does have the additional pick-ups, and I have a couple which do run on their own...

The suggestion then is that this is a later model - the OP also states the bodyshell is marked 'China'

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VonkeyVong
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Re: Type 5 Ringfield Tender Motor Removal

Postby VonkeyVong » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:08 pm

My tender drive unit from the Flying Scotsman I had ran perfectly on its own.


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