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Pullman cars

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:21 am
by GWR_fan
Earlier I purchased a "Bournemouth Belle' train pack and additional coach set made around the early 2000's. These cars had the 'steel' sides. I have now purchased, I assume, a later release 'Bournemouth Belle' coach pack that has six-wheel bogies and matchboard sides representing an earlier timeframe, plus three additional matchboard sided Pullman cars (without nameboards) to make up a 'set' of cars.

Would matchboard sided Pullman cars have run with 'steel' sided cars. My intention was to run an early timeframe (1930s/1940s) 'Bournemouth Belle' set with the matchboard sides with say a Southern locomotive and run the later 'steel' set with the 'rebuilt' Merchant Navy loco.

Tim

Re: Pullman cars

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:22 am
by GWR_fan
A check of an online 2009 Hornby catalogue shows a prototype photograph of the 'Bournemouth Belle' headed by a Britannia class loco with early BR crest and rooftop mounted nameboards. My 'steel' sided cars only have Bournemouth Belle printed at the end of each brake car (no rooftop nameboards). It is hard to pick if the coaches are match sided or not (the leading 3rd brake seems to have vertical strips in the guard area much like the Hornby cars have). Possibly, I can stick with the early BR nationalisation period as I had originally intended, without the expense of buying a Southern locomotive (not that there is anything wrong with that).

Tim

Re: Pullman cars

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:13 am
by SRman
Certainly between approximately 1951 and 1959 there could/would have been some smooth panelled cars and some matchboarded, with the proportions slowly changing towards the end in favour of the smooth-sided versions. The 12-wheelers would also have been phased out over that period and possibly into the early 1960s.

Re: Pullman cars

Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:22 am
by GWR_fan
Thankyou. As that is basically my modelling period then a little mix and match is possible. I have no interest in ensuring correct coach car names to a set or timeframe.

Tim

Re: Pullman cars

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:10 am
by GWR_fan
I suppose being a little anal retentive I would like all my Pullman coach roof colours to be reasonably matched. Now with basically no shopfront stores available, I am reliant on the photographs on the web to make decisions regarding coach purchases. It seems that Hornby are not very consistent with roof colours even for the same part number. A case in point is Pullman kitchen first class car 'Portia'. Now I want a light grey roof matchboard sided 12-wheel kitchen car and 'Portia' seemed ideal. An online photograph on an eBay store shows 'Portia' with a light grey/white roof. However, a trip to Hatton's online site shows 'Portia' with a darkish silvery grey roof colour. How does one know just what roof colour they are purchasing?

I am sure that roof colour was not consistent in a set, but on a scale level, a white/light grey roof followed by a dark silvery grey roof would look out of place (at least to me). Then I also would be loathed to mix 'blood and custard' with WR or maroon coaches, even though quite valid at transition timeframes.

Tim

Re: Pullman cars

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:39 am
by SRman
You could consider repainting and weathering the roofs, Tim. These are probably one of the easiest parts of a coach to repaint and it doesn't even matter if you are not the world's best painter, since many of the real things got quite patchy in appearance quite quickly.

Re: Pullman cars

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:27 am
by GWR_fan
SRman,
after years of kitbashing/scratchbuilding in largescale, I gravitated to 'OO' as I wanted everything ready to run. I was totally burned out with kitbashing everything in largescale and needed a break. Alas, even ready to run is not RTR. Repainting a roof is no problem with simple masking and overcoating, however, a little consistency from a manufacturer and a repaint would not be necessary.

Tim

Re: Pullman cars

Posted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:12 pm
by SRman
True. The only sets that I really try to get a consistent roof colour throughout are the SR/BR(S) EMUs which were, for the most part, considered 'indivisible' so tended to get all coaches repainted at the same time. Even so, there were exceptions in the real world such as accident repairs or substitutions of coaches from other units.

Re: Pullman cars

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:59 am
by GWR_fan
Well, caught out again by the elusive artistic licence Hornby takes with its box art colours. I had earlier purchased a twelve wheel "Bournemouth Belle" additional coach set. The box art depicted a light grey roof. Awaiting delivery, I took the chance to pick up an additional three matchsided Pullmans also with a lightish grey/white roof colouring, seemingly to match the box art depiction. The Belle cars finally arrived today. Of cause, the roof colour is not a match on the colour depicted on the box cover. The cars have a dirty grey metallic roof colour. I now have two three car mismatched Pullman sets. Of cause one could 'simply' repaint one set to match the others, but why cannot Horny get something right for once!!!!!!

Tim

Re: Pullman cars

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:29 am
by Cypher VII
GWR_fan wrote:why cannot Horny get something right for once!!!!!!



L0L. This is true though, a lot of the time the go to great lengths to detail something, or make it accurate, only to slip up on a minor detail like the roof colour!

:evil:

Re: Pullman cars

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 2:33 pm
by Brossard
Funnily enough there's a discussion on another forum about Pullman roof colour. Consensus seems to be that, when new, roofs (which were canvas) were painted with white lead as dope for waterproofing. However, white lead turns grey quite quickly when exposed to the elements. Of course, the roofs would also be streaked with soot and dirt. A mix of white and grey roofs would be prototypical.

As for Hornby - yes they can do a good job but they also like to expand their market by issuing these train packs which often contain old and obsolete coaches. Rails are advertising the Coronation Scot train pack which features a quite good loco but also includes three quite dreadful Margate era coaches which are totally wrong on so many levels.

John

Re: Pullman cars

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:24 pm
by Bufferstop
As Brossard pointed out the colour changes from white to mucky grey merely by exposure to the atmosphere. Only a set of coaches outshopped together would have roofs the same colour. Sets of coaches remaining together were rare in early BR days, the Brighton Belle electric sets were a notable exception. Within a rake you could get a variation from white to matt black. The external cleaning of carriages rarely extended above the cantrail, ie. as high as a man with a long handled brush could reach when standing on the servicing platform. A wet roof going into a tunnel behind a hardworking steamer was almost certain to come out the other end a couple of shades closer to black. The nearest colour I can get that looks like I remember is Humbrol 33 Matt, given a dusting of white talc lightly rubbed in with my finger tips. The colour is being applied in the wrong order but seems to work. I think any mixtures of shades of grey should be representative of a rake at some point in its life providing it's neither gloss black nor shiny white and doesn't look like unpainted plastic.

Re: Pullman cars

Posted: Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:31 pm
by GWR_fan
Thankyou for the excellent information on weathered roof colouring. In the main we all generally tend to be conformists. Thus all should appear equal and the same. My main 'gripe' is that the cars themselves did not reflect the box cover art. When purchasing the cars, I could only see the actual box artwork on the cover as the items were new. The seller did not display the contents. The cars themselves are beyond reproach and extremely well constructed. I have since purchased 'matching' roof colour matchsided cars for my lighter colour roof set and will in the course of time obtain darker cars to match the darker grey Bournemouth 12-wheelers.

As I noted earlier in the thread, even display photographs of the Pullmans between various dealers shows differing roof colour shades from light grey to dark metallic grey for the same 'named' car.

Tim

Re: Pullman cars

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:21 am
by GWR_fan
As BR Mk1 coaches and Pullmans shared a common gangway/buffer beam setup, would both possibly have been seen in the same set of cars or were Pullmans only coupled in specific 'Pullman' sets?

Tim

Re: Pullman cars

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:30 am
by Bigmet
Short answer is 'yes'.

Both the LNER and SR had used this coupler system (knuckle coupler/Pullman gangway) for ther own vehicles, and SR regularly ran trains with a Pullman section in addition to Pullman only services. Specials of mixed stock containing Pullman cars were run to prestige sporting events such as the major horse racing meets, and to meet transatlantic shipping services at Southampton ocean liner terminal. This pattern continued into BR operation, until BR eventally acquired the Pullman brand in the UK in the 1960s; from then on mxing of Pullman cars with BR mk1 and mk2 stock was a regular thing.