Carriages derailing

Discuss Hornby Model Railway products and related topics here. This includes (Lima, Rivarossi, Jouef, Electrotren).
peterjg
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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby peterjg » Sat Feb 13, 2021 11:57 am

"Bigmet quote" Now we know what you have got, there's a couple of things to look at before going any further:
Do these coaches roll freely, or do they very quickly stop after a push with scraping noises evident?
Looking at the underside of the coach, have (some of) the flanges made scrape marks?

Hi, the carriages are fine and roll freely,no problems with the bogies, axle mounting points etc. After studying all the advice given I am going to order some 12.6mm hornby replacements as I feel this will cure my problem.

Thanks Bigmet I cut and pasted your comment as I haven't figured out how to use the quote facility, I am not very good with computers!

Peter

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RuffnutThorston
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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby RuffnutThorston » Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:05 pm

Bufferstop wrote:Yes there are definitely square axel ones that came from China. Are the plastic on metal axle ones old Hornby Dublo ex Wrenn bought back by Hornby from Dapol. What cam from where and where it visited on the way seems to get a little muddled at times. I can remember Dapol issuing a full page article to the magazines explaining what came from where, what sort of chassis was being used with what and what sort of box it would come in.
Unsurprisingly the models in the shops didn't stick to all of the rules. My local model shop made the mistake of taking some out of their boxes to look at the differences. No surprise then that several got into the wrong style boxes.




The 1963 onwards Plastic wheels on steel axles used on Tri-ang Railways and Tri-ang Hornby models were not from Hornby Dublo, or G & R Wrenn, and Dapol wasn’t in existence then. David and Pauline from Highfield Birds and Models didn’t set up Dapol until much later....1980s? After the withdrawal of Palitoy’s Mainline brand of models.

They were a pure Margate product. Though the move to a finer wheel profile may have been influenced by the finer profile wheels and Code 100 type track used by Hornby Dublo.

Hornby Dublo (Meccano Ltd.) wheels were all metal, non insulated, with plain ended steel axles for three rail systems from 1938.

All the wheels were disk types, all the same diameter.

Around 1957 the first all black plastic wheels with integral axles were introduced on some coaches. These too had plain, not pin point, axle ends.

At first, the move to plastic wheels was explained as being for quieter running...

Hornby Dublo didn’t announce their two rail system until 1959, when the integral axle plastic wheels became standard.

There are two types of Hornby Dublo plastic wheels, spoked and disk. The disk being used on the coaches, and some wagons. The spoked type being used on wagons.

All the wheels are the same diameter.

A lot of the surplus already made up Hornby Dublo stock from Binns Road stores was sold by Wrenn.

At some point, Wrenn introduced plain ended steel axles with plastic wheels. I think these were made with and without plated metal tyres? Both spoked and disk types were made.

Later, Wrenn made plastic axle hangers of a similar pattern to the tinplate axle hangers used by Hornby Dublo.

These were designed to allow pin point axles to be used, and Wrenn then had four types of wagon and coach wheels available.

Spoked and disk wheels with plated metal tyres and with plain ended axles.

Spoked and disk wheels with plated metal tyres and with pin point end axles.

The pin point wheel sets would also fit Tri-ang Hornby wagons and coaches with pin point axles.

Wrenn A4 locomotive tenders were made for them by Tri-ang Hornby at Margate, using the tools for the A3, “Flying Scotsman “ tenders.

These were probably the first plated metal tyres plastic sleeved axle wheels to be made, Tri-ang Hornby A3 tenders using plain plastic sleeved axle wheels at this point.

When Tri-ang Hornby introduced the LMS Streamlined Princess Coronation Class models, the cast metal tender chassis used was supplied by Wrenn, made from the ex Hornby Dublo LMS tender chassis tools.

These tenders had Hornby Dublo style inside bearing wheelsets, in a tinplate subframe. The tender chassis axle boxes being cosmetic only.

These used plastic wheels on plain ended steel axles.

Wrenn isn’t my top subject. Though I do have Maurice Gunter’s books in our reference library...more reading may be in order I think... :wink:

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Bufferstop
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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby Bufferstop » Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:49 pm

Have you examined those Triang plastic split axle wheels, the design was rather devious. The back to back was so narrow and the amount of sideplay so great you couldn't make a frog that worked. The original Triang points having blades pivoted part way along so that the "crossing" end moved far enough across to line up with the exit rail. They must have felt guilty about the appearance because they then produced an almost conventional frog. Because their B2B dimension was so short it would have pulled the opposite wheel off the rail, their devious trick was the split axle, with the central pin and one wheel able to move to one side whilst the other wheel was free to slide to the other, there was a short ridge on the steel axle to ensure that it moved sideways with one wheel, whilst the other wheel was free to go wherever it was pulled or pushed. If you filed off the ridge or opened out the plastic half axle the running was catastrophic, when the wheelset arrived at the points from the branch end there was every chance both wheels would move towards the stock rail and it would mount the end of the wing rail then drop to the sleepers (or the impression of sleepers), coming the other way both wheels might drop down between the rails. If there was any damage that stopped the steel axle moving side to side it could go almost anywhere when it encountered the points. Wrenn points and Peco's spiked point kits, if carefully laid, gave far less problems The Peco ones needing no check rail at all as the frog was closed by the moving rail. I never did measure the height of any of the rails but I guess they were somewhere between code 130 to 140. It's no wonder Steamline sold so well when it came out.
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Buelligan
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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby Buelligan » Sat Feb 13, 2021 7:04 pm

peterjg wrote:Hello,I have just bought three S/H Hornby carriages from Ebay, cosmetically they are fine but will not run through my Peco setrack points there is a lot of lateral movement on the wheels and they hit the inner plastic guide rail end on and derail.
I am hoping the wheels are worn and a new set will cure the problem but as a beginner I am not sure what size replacements I need, are sizes quoted overall dia or running surface dia, my wheels seem to be an odd size being 15mm overall and 13mm on the running surface.
Any thoughts appreciated


I've the same issue with some coaches on my sons layout. The wheels and axel are all moulded in to one piece so there's no adjustment. If they enter the point just right, they're ok, but if they're slightly off line 1 wheel rides ip over the plastic keeper rail and it all comes off. I've not got around to replacing the wheels yet as he's going to need 40+ and I can't bring myself to spend that sort of money on some wheels for old coaches at the moment!

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Bufferstop
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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby Bufferstop » Sun Feb 14, 2021 12:10 am

One thing you can do is examine the wheels and clean up their plastic pinpoint axles, if they are the type with pressed on metal rims make sure the rims are on square and take a file to any that have rough edges. You could also make an appeal to anyone replacing their wheels for cosmetic reasons rather than running qualities, for some of the discarded ones. I'll have a look if there are any left in my "not quite junk" box, but I think I passed them all onto my grandson a few years back.
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peterjg
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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby peterjg » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:39 pm

I have bought new wheels from Peter's Spares, their own brand, and this has solved the problem, thanks to all who replied.

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Mountain
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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby Mountain » Tue Feb 23, 2021 1:48 am

Ah good. I am glad.

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End2end
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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby End2end » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:39 am

Although not derailing, does anyone know the metal replacement wheel sets for an Airfix Autocoach per chance?
I need metal ones so I can take power from the track to light the interior like Hornby wheel sets.
Thanks
End2end
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Mountain
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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby Mountain » Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:50 pm

End2end wrote:Although not derailing, does anyone know the metal replacement wheel sets for an Airfix Autocoach per chance?
I need metal ones so I can take power from the track to light the interior like Hornby wheel sets.
Thanks
End2end


Woule DCC Concepts have anything suitable?

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End2end
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Re: Carriages derailing

Postby End2end » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:52 pm

I found I had 2 R8128 14.1mm wheel sets in stock.
Now I need 2 more - viewtopic.php?f=43&t=56297
Thanks
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