Class 25 misbehaving

Discuss Hornby Model Railway products and related topics here. This includes (Lima, Rivarossi, Jouef, Electrotren).
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Hymirl
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Class 25 misbehaving

Postby Hymirl » Wed Dec 05, 2018 10:59 pm

I have Hornby R253 BR Class 25 in green as D5206. Ringfield powered with literally terrible pickups as standard for mid 90s.

Cleaning the wheels, normal cotton buds and lighter fluid technique, onto the layout for a test run, completes half a lap and it loses power and sits there with the motor racing. The wheels were filthy so I must have put too much stress on it getting muck off... :(

On investigation the gears are all meshed ok but the gear on the motor hub seems to spin freely on its shaft.

Any advice?

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SRman
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Re: Class 25 misbehaving

Postby SRman » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:21 pm

A spot of glue on the shaft to lock the gear back onto it is required. Avoid getting any glue on the bearings. All we want to do is stop the gear spinning on the shaft, not stop the whole shaft! :)

I would be inclined to use one of the Loctite glues, but you may have to ask for advice as to the best one to use. A cyanoacrylate (superglue) would also work, but a thicker type would probably be better.

Make sure you remove any oil or grease from the shaft, otherwise the glue won't 'take'.

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Mountain
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Re: Class 25 misbehaving

Postby Mountain » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:52 pm

Araldite two part glue maybe the right choice, but like SRman said, be careful that the glue only goes to the part it is supposed to go and first make sure that any oil on the shaft and cog is removed.

Those Hornby class 25's may be elderly models but they were rather well detailed in their day so hold their own in todays world. Sure, they can be further improved, but apart from a set of narrow couplings and the odd small improvement they don't really need much. With a fresh set of traction tyres six coach trains should be within its pulling power which is more then enough for most layouts.
Yes, get the loco fixed. It should give years of joy. And if glue doesn't work, Peters Spares should be able to get you a new cog, or failing that, an internet search should give you access to the part. :) °
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Re: Class 25 misbehaving

Postby GWR_fan » Wed Dec 05, 2018 11:56 pm

I assume that the gear fitted is the silver coloured alloy gear. If you wish to replace with a later brass gear then you need an eleven tooth gear for a three-pole armature. Later Chinese made models were five-pole and had ten tooth brass gears. Be wary as one major eBay seller from Preston has ten tooth gears listed as suitable for three pole motors. The brass eleven tooth gear at present, like many Hornby spares, is a very rare beast. Good luck if you decide to replace the gear.

Peters Spares has new alloy eleven teeth gears in a bulk purchase listing on eBay.

I had several of these models, even a dual motor, however, I found that the armature would carbon up very quickly making the running erratic on a regular basis.

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Hymirl
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Re: Class 25 misbehaving

Postby Hymirl » Thu Dec 06, 2018 12:28 am

Thanks for the prompt replies!

It might be old but I've had it from new and I do like it so I'd like it back in action (after 20 years stored). I did think careful glue will be the solution but... mildly nervous. I'll acquire some locktite and report back!

Fortune favours the bold etc..

Mountain wrote:Those Hornby class 25's may be elderly models but they were rather well detailed in their day so hold their own in todays world. Sure, they can be further improved, but apart from a set of narrow couplings and the odd small improvement they don't really need much. With a fresh set of traction tyres six coach trains should be within its pulling power which is more then enough for most layouts.


In fairness, its one of my younger locos!
The big couplings are moulded onto the bogies so would require significant surgery to alter I think.

GWR_fan wrote:I assume that the gear fitted is the silver coloured alloy gear. If you wish to replace with a later brass gear then you need an eleven tooth gear for a three-pole armature.


Yes, its a silver alloy gear, all the rest are black plastic.
Is a brass gear worth swapping to?

I had several of these models, even a dual motor, however, I found that the armature would carbon up very quickly making the running erratic on a regular basis.


Oh, I always thought the poor running was that it only picks up from two wheels off each bogie.

Bigmet
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Re: Class 25 misbehaving

Postby Bigmet » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:22 am

If you can source the correct brass gear, definitely worthwhile.

Adding pick ups is a good plan.

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Bufferstop
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Re: Class 25 misbehaving

Postby Bufferstop » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:54 am

Your problem is the gear rotating on the shaft. If you can get the correct 11 tooth gear replace it, otherwise clean the end of the gear and the bit of shaft visible in its centre, then put a blob of thick superglue on the end. The motor bogie has rubber tyres on two of it's wheels so cannot pick up on that side, but the trailing bogie has the same type of wheels without tyres and can pick up on both trails if you add wipers to the insulated wheels. Personally I prefer to have all metal wheels on my layout and swap the motor bogie wheels for the type used on the trailing bogie. If you want to add pickups to these wheelsets you need to put them bearing on the tread, as the gear moulded into the plastic hub makes it very difficult to put them on the wheel backs. If your stock is free running and you add extra ballast to the loco, the ringfield motor doesn't require the rubber tyres unless you want very long trains or have really steep gradients.
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Re: Class 25 misbehaving

Postby luckymucklebackit » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:19 am

My solution to poor pickup on early Hornby or Lima class 25/26/27s is to permanently wire them in multiple using thin wire, this effectively doubles the pickups on both locomotives and improves performance. Saying that, I have eight Sulzers, (with another on its way via Santa's sack) four of the current stock are Bachmann or Heljan and operating my layout to Scottish Region practice makes having 2 x pairs perfectly acceptable.

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Hymirl
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Re: Class 25 misbehaving

Postby Hymirl » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:08 pm

:P
luckymucklebackit wrote:My solution to poor pickup on early Hornby or Lima class 25/26/27s is to permanently wire them in multiple using thin wire, this effectively doubles the pickups on both locomotives and improves performance. Saying that, I have eight Sulzers, (with another on its way via Santa's sack) four of the current stock are Bachmann or Heljan and operating my layout to Scottish Region practice makes having 2 x pairs perfectly acceptable.

Jim


Sadly D5206 doesn't have any classmates on shed. So I'll tell the wife the forum says the solution is to buy 7 more locomotives!

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Re: Class 25 misbehaving

Postby Bigmet » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:23 pm

Should that meet resistance offer the alternative forum suggestion of buying just one, a Bach 25, then transplant the Bach drive into the Hornby body, sell on the leftovers...

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D605Eagle
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Re: Class 25 misbehaving

Postby D605Eagle » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:54 pm

You could consider doing an upgrade. A CD motor, a nylon gear, 1/4" drill and a few minutes with a soldering iron and you've got a smooth running loco. Total outlay less than £5. If the wheels are getting dirty that quickly you need to clean the track. Oddly I upgraded my model of D5206 just the other day with twin power bogies. It's stupidly powerful now.

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SRman
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Re: Class 25 misbehaving

Postby SRman » Fri Dec 07, 2018 11:58 pm

If you go the D605Eagle route, I would recommend doing the wheel swap suggested earlier to eliminate traction tyres altogether, and rig extra pickups to get all-wheel electrical pickup. That will give you a smooth and powerful loco.

I went the Bigment route, and used a Hornby body on a cheap Bachmann chassis. That required the chassis to be shortened by approximately 1mm, or the equivalent of two sawcuts cutting off the buffer beams and adding them to the Hornby body.

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D605Eagle
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Re: Class 25 misbehaving

Postby D605Eagle » Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:29 am

Yes you no longer need the traction tyres on it. With them the loco will really pull a house down LOL! Far more powerful than real scale class 25 would be. Non traction tyre axle sets are easily obtained from ebay etc.

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Hymirl
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Re: Class 25 misbehaving

Postby Hymirl » Sun Dec 09, 2018 9:56 pm

A bit of superglue and D5206 is back in service.

Now shes nice and clean with her gears oiled shes smoothly running laps of the christmas tree as my actual layout in progress has had its power supply 'borrowed.' Maybe I have unfairly commented on her running as last time I had a layout it was hornby steel settrack with a rather youthful ignorance toward maintaince schedules.

Thank you for all the other suggestions, all very intetesting ideas. I'm trying to keep the budget down for now so I'll see how she does running as stock but I think a few extra pickups wouldn't go amiss for the future.

Todays daft questions,
Where do I get new pickups, fabricate from brass sheet?

And can I just cut off traction tyres if needed? I don't anticipate more than a 4 coach train ever happening...

Edit: Nope, gone again, goning to try a two pack glue instead. :cry:

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SRman
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Re: Class 25 misbehaving

Postby SRman » Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:34 pm

I wouldn't recommend just cutting off the traction tyres. The wheels have grooves in them, which can adversely affect running. If you want to get rid of the traction tyres, buying (or otherwise acquiring) the trailing bogie wheel sets would be better.

I have used brass wire for pickups, but better ones can be made from phosphor-bronze strip, which is springier than the brass wire. Not specifically on class 25s, I have used old wooden lolly sticks to mount extra pickups on some other items in the past. Knowing the shapes involved with the ringfield motor, I'm not sure the lolly stick idea would work in this case.


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