Hornby Railroad 14XX

Discuss Hornby Model Railway products and related topics here. This includes (Lima, Rivarossi, Jouef, Electrotren).
GWR_fan
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Hornby Railroad 14XX

Postby GWR_fan » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:35 pm

I was hoping to get one of these to accompany my mint Dapol version which runs very well, but alas, even though some are still available it does seem a lottery whether one receives a functional locomotive. I could buy one for $70.00 including shipping downunder, however, until the fault is made public it would be a gamble to purchase one (or two).

Fortunately for one member here who never, ever, ever finds fault with a Hornby product has received a functional (without fault) model. Oh, to be so lucky given the number of failures reported elsewhere.

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D605Eagle
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Re: Hornby Railroad 14XX

Postby D605Eagle » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:53 am

As far as I know the only issue is the spring on the undriven rear wheelset is too stiff. Its very easy to reduce its stiffness so the loco sits correctly.

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Re: Hornby Railroad 14XX

Postby George Stein » Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:55 am

Cryptic remark. Please do elaborate. ????

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Re: Hornby Railroad 14XX

Postby Bigmet » Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:40 am

There have been reports that the current Railroad release of this item can barely move itself as received. But those owners who set about finding out why have come to the conclusion posted here.
D605Eagle wrote:... the spring on the undriven rear wheelset is too stiff. Its very easy to reduce its stiffness so the loco sits correctly.

This model has always been a 'balancing act'. The rear undriven wheel needs a soft spring to keep the model stable on the driven wheels, ensuring decent pick up; but not lifting the traction tyred wheelset off the track, which is the old bodge to give it some traction.

It's an old model tooling and dirt cheap...

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Re: Hornby Railroad 14XX

Postby Bufferstop » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:36 am

The spring on the rear axle has been a problem ever since the model was introduced. When Dapol took it over they swapped the massive motor which was above the rear axle for a type 7 motor which is much lighter and sits further forward. They also changed the diabolical plunger pickups for wipers. I bought one of these chassis from the Dapol factory showroom and one of their factory staff tipped me off about adjusting the spring to compensate for the lighter motor. Presumably this bit of knowledge has been lost in all the changes that have happened to Hornby since they took over the model from Dapol.
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Re: Hornby Railroad 14XX

Postby Peterm » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:46 pm

I've got one of these Hornby ex Dapol 14xx's. I wanted rid of the traction tyres so splashed out on a set of Ultrascale wheels... I was working then and had a couple of bob. I was worried about the traction but it pulls a prototypical load and with no problem with the springing on the trailing axle it picks up and runs smoothly. Maybe the Ultrascales are the answer, albeit an expensive one.
Pete.

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Re: Hornby Railroad 14XX

Postby George Stein » Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:40 am

Very helpful comments. Now,I have an ancient non-running Airfix 14xx. Is there any reason I cannot remove the wheels from the front axle to replace the traction tire (tyer) wheels on the middle axle of the new re-release version? Also, how did you weaken the pony truck spring? Thanks.

George
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Re: Hornby Railroad 14XX

Postby Bigmet » Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:18 am

Exchanging the wheelsets to produce an all metal tyred loco by the method proposed is almost standard on this item! (Some have found it possible to remove the metal tyres from the plastic spokes moulding, and exchange the tyres on the moulding, which means no quartering is required, and correctly positioned balance weights. Perhaps sopmeone here has done it and can advise.)

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Re: Hornby Railroad 14XX

Postby Mountain » Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:48 pm

The old Airfix 14xx is a beautiful model with a lovely 5 pole motor, however few ran right even from new in some cases. There were shorting issues and wheel contact issues.
To remedy the shorting issues one needs to remove the motor which has a downward protruding pin. Wrap something round the sides of this like heatshrink or a small piece of tape. The very bottom of it needs to make contact and not the sides, which tend to short on the chassis block.
I'm told the wheel plunger pickups can be replaced for stronger ones. I just positioned mine closer to the wheels and I finally got my Airfix model to come to life!
I no longer have it now as I moved into B.R. blue modelling, and now into narrow gauge modelling.

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Re: Hornby Railroad 14XX

Postby Bigmet » Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:47 pm

The original open frame five pole motor in Airfix/GMR mechanisms - also found in their Brush type 2 and N2 in addition to the 14xx - is a really good design, based directly on the well proven MW005 motor. With the two stage plastic gear train used in the N2 this was one of the best mechanisms from that house in terms of running. Sadly, the low cost manufacturing of the motor meant that between an unbalanced armature, and typically pretty slack bearings, the noise while running was usually in the 'coffee grinder' class. (The Brush 2 with direct drive was a particularly powerful exponent of this behaviour!) A further good characteristic of this motor is a magnet which is not vulnerable to loss of field.

I never got to work on a 14xx, but expect that like the N2 if the motor had the armature balanced and close fitting bearings machined for it, then it would run very sweetly once any other shortcomings in the mechanism were dealt with. My original Airfix N2 with this motor treatment cannot be distinguished from the current Hornby N2s made from the old Airfix tooling, but now with Hornby's smooth and silent five pole 'black can' motor. There's even convenient slots either side of the motor which will take an HO decoder like the Lenz standard fully concealed in the bunker. (You will understand that there are quite a number of these locos on the layout, the most numerous tank engine class in the Kings Cross district during LNER days and the BR steam period, known colloquially as the 'Big Metropolitan tank' or more usually 'Big Met'...)

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Re: Hornby Railroad 14XX

Postby GWR_fan » Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:21 pm

As regards the upgrading of the open frame Airfix motor, a You-Tube member "Barrie Davis" did an excellent upload on modifying the motor for smooth operation. This included removing the end float and replacing and correctly locating the stock worm gear. The result was a smooth noise free model. Alas, sometime ago Barrie was severely criticised for his meandering (though highly informative) manner and he took down his channel. He has since recently resurrected the channel but the particular video is not available.

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Re: Hornby Railroad 14XX

Postby D605Eagle » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:36 am

OK I have now had chance to run my new 14/48xx. It can barely pull itself. Put a single coach behind it and it wont move. I delved in deep to have a look and I just could not believe what I saw. Remember this was in their normal locos until this release which is now railroad. The price is considerably cheaper than it was before, so you'd kind of think that Hornby would have spent no money on it whatsoever. Well you'd be wrong. They have designed a new chassis for it, and instead of having slots for the axles that are the same diameter as the axles, it has square slots! The rear non powered wheel no longer has a spring, it is solidly mounted in the chassis with no play at all. Although it looks like the middle wheel is on the track its actually not. Not only have they done a new chassis but the keeper plate is new with pickups that point down instead of up. The ones on the rear wheel are too long.
I only wanted the one I have bought for parts so using the chassis from an old one I have fitted the wheels, intermediate gear and motor plus the keeper plate to the old chassis, cut the old chassis rear wheel spring in half, put it all together and now it quite easily pulled 9 Hornby super detailed Gresley coaches on the flat without wheelslip, and they are far from lightweights.
Also its not DCC ready, the motor is directly wired to the pickups with the finest wire you've ever seen(easily broken....)
So GWR Fan, George Stein etc, I would avoid this one unless you want it for spares.
Oh George if you use an airfix axle on the hornby one it will look wrong as the airfix one is silver, and the hornby one is darkened.
Last edited by D605Eagle on Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Hornby Railroad 14XX

Postby D605Eagle » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:39 am

Bigmet wrote:Exchanging the wheelsets to produce an all metal tyred loco by the method proposed is almost standard on this item! (Some have found it possible to remove the metal tyres from the plastic spokes moulding, and exchange the tyres on the moulding, which means no quartering is required, and correctly positioned balance weights. Perhaps sopmeone here has done it and can advise.)

They come off quite easily on the airfix ones (plastic shrinkage of the wheel perhaps?) Not so easy on the hornby ones, but still possible. It is easy to get the wheels off the axle, so if you're okay with quartering thats possibly the easiest route to go down even though the accuracy won't be as good with the balance weights. In both cases the coupling rods have to be removed.
Maybe putting the complete axle in very hot water will help get the tyre off? I don't know.

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Re: Hornby Railroad 14XX

Postby D605Eagle » Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:48 am

Bigmet wrote: Sadly, the low cost manufacturing of the motor meant that between an unbalanced armature, and typically pretty slack bearings, the noise while running was usually in the 'coffee grinder' class. (The Brush 2 with direct drive was a particularly powerful exponent of this behaviour!)


To wander off topic somewhat, did you ever try gluing the brass bearings on the armature into the bogie chassis and fitting thrust washers to stop end float? I did this recently and although it's nowhere near as quiet as a modern centre motor all drive diesel it's so much quieter than unmodified.

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Re: Hornby Railroad 14XX

Postby Bigmet » Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:07 am

That's a turn-up on the Railroad 14xx mechanism! Not read that reported anywhere else. Scavenging the parts and putting them in an old chassis looks like a very practical method.

D605Eagle wrote:
Bigmet wrote: ... the noise while running was usually in the 'coffee grinder' class. (The Brush 2 with direct drive was a particularly powerful exponent of this behaviour!)
To wander off topic somewhat, did you ever try gluing the brass bearings on the armature into the bogie chassis and fitting thrust washers to stop end float? I did this recently and although it's nowhere near as quiet as a modern centre motor all drive diesel it's so much quieter than unmodified.

Never did that. What I did do was take 2 bought s/h, and made a single twin bogie drive out of it. It was a model full of 'good things' in that the pick up bogie wheels can be exchanged onto the geared axles, and for the trouble of arranging wiper pick ups you then have an all wheel drive and pick up BoBo, with tremendous traction. This was what my outdoor line needed to cope with full size trains on gradients in any weather, which it did for many years, the noise not mattering at all. It still runs under a different body on friend's layout making as much racket as ever, but it is solidly reliable and pulls well which is his priority.

My Airfix Brush 2 bodies now glide about on mazak rotted Hornby Brush 2 drives, got very cheap indeed. (It is an ill wind that blows no-one any good!)


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