St. Blazey's - My first layout - Stage 3 Building

[End2end]

Thanks Bufferstop. Being a spatial learning I am just trying to decipher (yes it really does feel like it with some things ) your written instructions before commencing.
Thanks
End2end

[Bufferstop]

Hi End2end
If it helps I could rewrite it as a step by step list of single instructions, got 3 dyslexics and a disgraphic (can't read his own writing) in the family
Used to have to write scripts for tech support operators to talk people through test procedures.

[End2end]

If it helps I could rewrite it as a step by step list of single instructions

Yes please Bufferstop if you wouldn't mind that would be extremely helpful.
I won't be able to move on the layout now until probably Monday so there's no rush.
Thanks
End2end

[Bufferstop]

OK I'll look at your track plan and work out the best order for least effort. It'll be like old times

[Bufferstop]

Hi End2end
I've bashed out a drawing of your track, coloured the rails the colour they should be, and done some labelling so we can refer to the points and feeds systematically. Points are 1 to 17 and the point where the droppers feed I've labelled A to T. Straight away I can see that there's a length of red rail between points 2 and3 that can only be connecting to anything through the point blades. You may want to put in and additional dropper, rather than shuffling labels around we can call it Bb.
Rather than start disconnecting things, you can chop up the track into sections with some masking tape. Cut some small tabs of tape and trap them between the straight point blade and its stock rail and leave all the points set straight.

Here's the drawing.

You can save a copy of it and get it printed out to A4 size. It's only 800x600 pixs but prints out quite clear on "fit to page."

Put the tape on the point blades so the straight ahead contact is broken
disconnect the droppers from the bus.
Then start with dropper A black and you should find continuity all along that top black rail, on dropper B black and dropper C black but nowhere else.
Dropper A red should only connect to that bit of rail which ends with the taped up blade in point 1
It might be quicker to connect your test lead to the red rail where dropper A is soldered on, and the other lead to the taped up blade.
Then try B red to point 4's curved blade and point 6's curved blade.

If you don't get the expect connections give me a squawk!

[End2end]

I have just been looking at some of the points with a friend and noticed that some look slightly different. Would having electrofrog points in paces on the layout cause the problem? As on the points the plastic seperating the V rails looks like current could jump across to the wrong track.?
Thanks
End2end

[End2end]

Attaching the bus to only 1 point A, removing point 4 stops the short circuit. Adding it back in with the rest of that siding removed still incurs a short circuit.
I'm wondering if it is some of the points causing the problem.
Thanks
End2end

[End2end]

Straight away I can see that there's a length of red rail between points 2 and3 that can only be connecting to anything through the point blades. You may want to put in and additional dropper, rather than shuffling labels around we can call it Bb.

Yes the holes are drilled but no droppers added there as of yet.
Ok so...
Taped up all points.
Removed point 4 and all siding to D. I think this point is causing an issue.
A to C both black and red have full continuity.
Point 14 also has a continuity issue.
Testing continues....
Thanks
End2end

[End2end]

Performing the continuity tests on the points, after testing a certain point (number 14, point 4 still removed) the polarity crosses on the rail so the negative rail has continuity to the postive rail of the track it is set to which looks like it is then causing the short.
Although the diagram below is for wheels causing a short circuit I think this isolating soloution for fixing the problematic points in the same way will fix the short issue i'm seeing when the points are switched? So by fitting IRJ's on all points and the new link wires my thinking is that this will fix any shorts, rather than having to replace what I originally thought were broken points.
Can anyone confirm?


Thanks
End2end

[Bufferstop]

That would certainly explain some of your problems. When it comes to settrack points there seem to be three sizes of insulation, Hornby is huge, masses of plastic, Peco original is smaller but there is a definite triangular block of plastic, Peco latest is quite small and from time to time can be bridged by some (rather wide tyred) loco wheels. I've never come across a case where it shorts out without a wheel on the top but if fitting IRJ's to the end of the frog clears it go with it. IJust don't fit Hornby contact clips, they will energise the open blade and you'll be back where you started. Is it possible that the insulation has been damaged previously. CJ Freezer used to convert insulfrog into electrofrog before Peco introduced them by pulling out the V rails, and pushing in new rails to meet at a point, by holding a soldering iron on the end of them. Personally I stick to electrofrog and IRJs, they involve a little extra work but you just do it and they work.

[End2end]

Is it possible that the insulation has been damaged previously.

Not it seems even after looking using a high powered jeweller's loupe. If IRJ's are not the soloution then I am a dead end for ideas except that the points are causing the problem. All wiring connections have been checked multiple times and even with only 1 pair of droppers I am still getting a short ciruit when point 14 is thrown.
So until the IRJ's turn up I am at a loss. Ripping up the track again seems inevitable after all.
Thanks
End2end

[MrH]

Point 14 could just be faulty l. I had it on a layout I worked on all the wires were right it sparked when I flipped it which tripped the controller. The only fix was a new point.

[Bufferstop]

I'm curious about the point that caused the problem. If it had an electrofrog it would be a Streamline short point not settrack. There's one definite identifier: - settrack points have the sleeper base cut away below the fitted fishplate, streamline don't. The rails actaually meet at the point of the frog. If that's what they are you'l need the IRJs and don't fit Hornby clips to them, unless you are prepared to modify the links underneath them and install frog switching. The geometry is slightly different to settrack, if you mix them you may need bits of flexitrack as the distance between track centres is different.

[End2end]

From what I managed to find online they are definatly insulfrog, as I expected, from what I bought. All points are exactly the same geometry. The only difference is the size of the plastic insulator between the frog rails. All have one but it differs in size.
Thanks
End2end

[Bufferstop]

If the insulation at the frog is small enough for a wide wheel tread to bridge it then it would be best to treat them as though they were electrofrog, fit the IRJs,and rely on the blade to stockrail contact to energise the blades and V rails. It will minimise risk of shorting out to when a wheel goes through the gap between blade and stock rail at the same time as a wide tread is passing over the frog. Keeping the back to back dimension right will help avoid that situation. Whoever said insulfrogs were easy, specially with DCC