GWR hybrid

[Lysander]

Ever on the look-out for Great Western coaching variety, I have been musing recently over the possibility of 'improving' the GWR-liveried Triang Caledonian coach to create a neverwasa GWR composite. Repainting into Shirtbutton livery will be simple. Interior detail -which was never fitted to these hybrids - will be easy too. The greatest hurdle will be the BR Mk 1 underframe that these coaches were fitted with. I have not measured anything up yet but was thinking about adapting an Airfix Centenary underframe and using its bogies too. No idea yet if it can be made to fit acceptably - I don't want a botched job.

Has anyone attempted any modifications to these coaches ? I'd be keen to learn from your experiences......

Thanks

Tony

[Lysander]

Well, for the .4 of you who are interested, I can now confirm that the Centenary underframe is too short for the Caledonian coach. I'll measure up against an old Dapol 12-wheel dining car next. God's teeth, this is exciting isn't it.........

Tony

[Bigmet]

The best I can offer are suggestions. For the effort you are proposing, a better result should be obtained by building a kit; what I don't know is what is available in GWR subjects. Even quite basic kits can be improved and altered, enabling the subject range to be enlarged to cover the great variety of grouping and BR steam era stock.

The next step is scratchbuilding if suitable kits are not available. I can thoroughly recommend David Jenkinson's 'Carriage Modelling made Easy' (Wild Swan) as a guide to what is possible using plasticard.

[Lysander]

Thanks Bigmet. I'm rapidly coming to the same conclusion. Whilst the body can be made - cosmetically - to look reasonably attractive, it is still full of compromise [the extremely deep panelling for eg, and the incorrect roof vents]. A quick chassis job would have persuaded me to have run with this project but there isn't going to be a quick chassis job I'm afraid.

Taken as a whole, the significant effort required to turn something that already wasn't into something that would never-have-been isn't justifiable. I did look at carving up the existing Mk1 chassis but the amount of plastic requiring removal and the amount of subsequent rebuilding [sole-bars, etc] wasn't worth the effort for the end result.

I've not given up completely on this whim but, for the time being, I'll not be expending too much energy on it.

If any members have undertaken some improvements to these coaches I'd love to see the photographs if they can be posted.

With regard to the original Caledonian models, Triang obviously went to the considerable trouble of making these unique coaches to accompany their Caledonian Single. They never had the utility - or availability - that the GWR Clerestories had however and it must have taken a while to have recouped the tooling costs [even though they were 50% Mk1]. Could you see Bachmann releasing a rake of LSWR or Midland coaches to accompany some of their recent releases ?

Thanks

Tony

[Dad-1]

Hi Tony ......

'Never Knowingly Understood'

I'll not argue !!

Have fun .................

Geoff T.

[Bigmet]

There's a little LSWR stock announced, Kernow Models have commisioned a set from Dapol to match their BWT and announced O2 0-4-4T. http://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/pa ... Gate_Stock

I would say the toe is going into the water at both Bachmann and Hornby.

Bachmann have the SECR 'Birdcage' set, a GW design auto trailer, LMS inspection saloon and Stanier Porthole coaches, LNER Thompson stock on their announcement list, so they are very definitely working their way around the big four companies and subsequent BR regions, expanding the steam era carriage stock choice. Given the number of LMS/LMR types in their range, and the recent surge into GCR locos, wouldn't be at all surprised to see some suitable matching coaches - in time once they have worked through the existing fairly long 'to do' list.

Hornby too, I was surprised that they went so far in offering a choice of both Gresley and Thompson non-gangwayed. One or the other would have been my expectation, with some LMS design equivalents, as these are a gaping hole in RTR provision. Perhaps this years announcement for some LMS non-gangwayed? (Hornby have in the past 'worked their way around' the big four in carriage stock provision: look what they did in corridor coaches, Gresley, Stanier, Maunsell, Hawksworth; now they gave done Gresley/Thompson in non-gangwayed, thus my guess that some LMS types might come next. Most of the LMS 2-6-4T family available, but none of the coaching stock they were so much seen with, looks a very obvious choice for them.)

But the fact is that RTR will never be able to cover everything, the variety is just too great; ho for kits and scratchbuilds...

[Lysander]

Hi Tony ......

'Never Knowingly Understood'

I'll not argue !!

Have fun .................

Geoff T.

Very wise, Geoff. very wise.......!!

Anyway, I've decided to continue with this rather pointless project. For those who do not know these unusual coaches, they were originally built by the Caledonian Railway [1904/05] as 12 wheelers and designated 'Grampian stock'. The first photo shows a photo of one from the donor series ; a composite [the one I am using is a brake]. The model dates from '63-'67 and unlike most coaches produced at that time it had no interior detail. Ultimately these coaches were issued in 4 liveries ; Caledonian, LMS, GWR and Southern. The LMS wasn't that good, the last 2 were dreadful. These coaches are also unusual in that if compartment size is the indicator [taken through window-to-window measurement], the comp. has 5 First and 3 Third class compartments and the brake has 4 First and 3 Third class compartments. This is not prototypical. Not very GWR but we are where we are......



This project may not see fruition but, for the time being, the balance of the photos show the donor coach broken into its constituent parts and the BR Mk1 underframe cleared of its buffers, moulded buck-eye couplings, truss-rodding / framing and battery boxes [those saved for re-fixing more centrally later, to provide support to the fragile truss-rodding]. This seemed the easiest / quickest way to go as I had no other underframes that I was prepared to sacrifice.




There was quite a lot of hard plastic to cut away from the underframe but Xuron track cutters and a razor saw made very light work of it. A bit of scalpelry and a rub down with an emery board [ooooh, Matron....] produced an acceptable basis on which to construct truss rods out of micro-strip [1x1.5mm]. An original underframe is shown for comparison. I also have some 'L' section strip to suggest footboards. I have left the dynamo and brake cylinders in place. This doesn't have to be remotely prototypically accurate, just aesthetically acceptable.

The interior from another scrap Triang coach has been cleaned, cut up into many sections, shortened and glued back together to match the compartments.

I plan to run the coach on Bachmann Collett bogies. I'm still considering the best option for a truly square mounting - nothing worse than coach wobble......

More photos in due course [but don't hold yer breath....].

Tony

[Lysander]

A thoroughly wet and miserable day down here on the Peninsula, so I gave this conversion some more thought...........

I have opened up all of the door drop-lights by 1mm on both sides as the originals were far too small for a GWR bogie coach - reminiscent in fact of the door drop-lights on one of those old K's white-metal six-wheelers. An easy job with careful file and scalpel work, and well worth it. An end-plate has also been fitted to the corridor connection at the brake end.

After much thought, I have also solved the fitting of the Bachmann Collett bogies, ensuring a tight and wobble-free run. The solution may seem obvious [in hindsight], but it was not possible without further surgery.

I first removed the original bogie-mounting columns from the underside of the chassis [seen in the last two of the photos above]. Xuron cutters removed them in their entirety at a stroke and the base was sanded flat to then accept a strip of 1.5mm plastic card, covering the hole in the underframe. The centre line of the underframe was then marked up and crossed by a accurate transverse line to establish the exact centre of the original hole, through which to drill the plastic card to receive the bogie fixing bolt.

Through the hole in the top-side of the underfame a longish M2 screw was pushed and this will be epoxyied in place in due course. A similar piece of plastic card was then attached to the underside of the Bachmann bogie, centre and transverse lines drawn in and a hole drilled through their intersection. This to receive the bottom of the fixing-bolt in due course.

To the underside of the chassis, two spare Ratio bogie-fixings were threaded onto the protruding bolts, tightened up and then glued to the plastic-card with Plas-Weld. This established precisely the correct position for their receiving holes. Onto the Ratio mouldings was then glued a single .5mm washer to provide spacing and so enable the wheels to clear the underside of the chassis.

The bogies were then threaded onto the bolt and each tightened with an M2 nut. There was just enough thread to allow this and eventually a lock-nut compound will be applied to ensure that they remain tight. Result, correctly placed and securely attached bogies which run freely without wobbling. Photo shows the above.



Tony

[Lysander]

Battery boxes repositioned and truss rods fabricated. Step boards have also been fitted. Buffers in place. As everything for this project had to come out of the bits box [now perilously depleted], the buffers are possibly a Stanier type of coach fitting, a little way from home. They'll look suitably vintage and fine when sprayed black however. Rather poor photo shows progress.



Tony

[Lysander]

This is likely to be it for a little while because of other commitments. A dry-run assembly showed quite pleasing results however and the BR Mk1 underframe's origins are now far less visible. Overall, a worthwhile project and the coach looks much more like a turn-of-the-century 65 footer. Even though the only GWR features on this coach are its bogies, a paint job and appropriate lettering will hopefully disguise further its Grampian origins. It's a shame I couldn't adapt the underframe for 6-wheel bogies, it just would have required too much surgery however and also taken some of the rigidity out of the underframe.

Photos show progress. Seats and glazing to be fitted after painting.




Tony

[Bigglesof266]

Your enthusiasm and productivity never ceases to amaze me Tony. Well done!

One of the "interested .4".

[Lysander]

Thanks Biggles - appreciated. I had been wondering about the potential of these coaches for a while. I haven't the patience to do more than one but did want a brake as a through coach to attach to another rake that I run.

Tony

[Lysander]

Ah, the direction in which things run................

I had the sides and other parts from another ex-Caledonian coach in the parts locker and was looking at them whilst watching re-runs of The West Wing on-line [it's sometimes quite witty]. It occurred to me that cut-and-shuttery was a distinct possibility for yet further improbable GWR coach variations [in this case, a nearly-40ft corridor third]. Ten minutes work with a very sharp and fine-toothed razor saw produced these sides. The corridor-side is made up of five fillets, the compartment-side two. Cut-and-shut is always tricky ; the joins are hard to disguise and if the original mouldings were anything less than perfect you are wasting your time. Some fine emery and a few thick coats of primer will remove the worst of the imperfections however. The trick here is to let the primer dry absolutely hard for two or three days.

I don't know if this will progress further than a 'what-if' stage yet, and I'll have to source a pair of Hornby Collet bogies as the Bachmann ones are a little too long for realism. However, it's worth further consideration. Looking at it again, a further 'compartment-side' [and so binning the corridor-side] might result in an interesting suburban coach. I've a couple of Ratio coach ends which could probably be made to fit, just need a suitable underframe and another donor coach. In the meantime, I might well sand out the ribs on the end partitions on the corridor-side to remove the slight size discrepancies.



So far, I've ignored the original Triang Clerestories, but they have scope for development also.........

Tony

[Lysander]

I'm sort of toying around with this. It could look quite interesting, maybe an ex-family saloon or something from a defunct Royal Train rake. Certainly, it would stretch credibility beyond to suggest that it was later put into stock as a corridor third [but I can live with that !].

The roof is ex-Triang early clerestory and is in three sections. Looks rough certainly, but not as bad as the photos. Everything is held in place with bluetak currently to check for gaps, etc. Lots of remedial work to do. I'll only proceed if I can sand out the considerable imperfections in the roof joints to produce a smooth, even line. It'll look terrible otherwise. It's got potential though. Just need to consider bogies.

Must source some paint now to finish its bigger brake brother......



Tont

[Lysander]

Well, to my surprise, the roof cleaned up remarkably well and looks nothing like the above photo. It'll never be possible to disguise the joins completely but, given the number of them, the overall result is not bad. Some flashes of primer and then a good spray of top coat will work wonders. No photo alas - simply too late.

I'd be interested to know what fillers people use in cases like this. I have used Milliput with some success but my supply has gone hard through age. I've used green Squadron putty too, but it seems to contain a plastic-eating solvent and so must be employed with great care. What do you lot use ?

Thanks.

Tony